[For news on NWT Mint, see http://about.ag/NWTMint.htm]
[For research on bullion dealers, see http://BullionDealerData.com]




Forum
Register Calendar Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 1 of 2      1   2   Next
bull123

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #1 
How is it possible that it is even legal to offer "storage" of a product that you don't have stored?

Shouldn't this be regulated?

I would be willing to wager that this is widespread in the precious metals industry

I know ... we are supposed to be trusting ... but the temptation must be so great for these storage people to take the money and fill their vaults with feathers ...

$$$

just sayin =)
0
JG

Administrator
Registered:
Posts: 960
Reply with quote  #2 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bull123
How is it possible that it is even legal to offer "storage" of a product that you don't have stored?

Shouldn't this be regulated?

I would be willing to wager that this is widespread in the precious metals industry


Barring some unexpected explanation ("Gee, it was stored in the secret vault in the bathroom stall with the "out of order" sign on it, why didn't you just ask?"), it is not legal. Bullion Direct at least had a wishy-washy Terms and Conditions that it could try to hide behind, but this was a seemingly standard storage contract. The customer buys or sends metal, it is legally the customers' metal, and NWT "safeguards" it.

My advice is that nobody, under any circumstances, should store metal with a company that also sells metal, and you should only store metal with a company that does significant business including commercial customers (e.g. Brinks).

0
bull123

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #3 
JG ... you are dead on right as usual

100% correct ...

Question: do you have any regrets about the "no issues detected" ... because in retrospect, there was a tidal wave of issues to detect ...  That BBB report was all you needed to see ...

The line of Bullsh** he shoveled to you ... was just that ... very smelly indeed

i love your reporting ... but you should have seen this one coming

just a question ... don't shoot the messenger ...
0
JG

Administrator
Registered:
Posts: 960
Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bull123
Question: do you have any regrets about the "no issues detected" ... because in retrospect, there was a tidal wave of issues to detect ...  That BBB report was all you needed to see ...

The line of Bullsh** he shoveled to you ... was just that ... very smelly indeed


No regrets, it worked as intended.

I had a very, very sticky situation to deal with. This was back in January. I was aware of the defamation case (but had no idea what the award would be, of course). I knew that Ross Hansen is a litigious person, so I had to be very careful with what I said, and given his personality, I wanted to stay on his good side (e.g. I felt it would be more beneficial to creditors).

The "no issues detected" was intended to help gain exposure to my page and the issues at NWT Mint (the link was on every about.ag page). I tried to word it in a way so that Ross would not freak out seeing it on every page, while at the same time helping draw attention to the issue. And I also was trying to get NWT customers to contact me with issues (none did in the ~2 months from the time I posted that until shortly before the bankruptcy when NWT was telling customers they couldn't ship metal or return money).

And the BBB complaints were not easy to process. First, the local BBB screwed up several times. Second, many complaints were for orders that had not yet reached the point where they were late, skewing everything. Third, it was NOT following a pattern suggesting imminent financial collapse (as did happen with Tulving, with more and more complaints every month); the volume was fairly high, but steady.

0
bull123

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #5 
fair enough ...

i think you have one of the best reporting sites on the internet (for all forms of news)

HINT: you are just scratching the surface of the crooked-ness in the precious metals industry

this "storage thing" is abused virtually EVERYWHERE ... has been for years ...

hear the word "STORAGE" ... expect what happened with NWT

this is going to end with Gold dealers having to be licensed ... they already have done it in Minnesota

appreciate your hard work and dedication ...
0
Finn

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 3
Reply with quote  #6 
JG is right about R.  
 
Speaking to Ross or of him requires much caution.  
 
Many that don't exercise caution are often threatened with lawsuits and bullied into retracting any negative comments.  
 
I’m VERY confident the storage side of this will be much worse than people expect.  
0
bull123

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #7 
If Ross was so concerned with the slander law, why would he go out and set up that page about Cohen?

Maybe we should all use caution now in what we say ?!? ... (not)

this whole story from A-Z stinks to high heaven ...

there is no way Ross gets off with a slap on the wrist ... they are going to bury him in prison until he is old and gray and maybe beyond because this time it went beyond a very fringe audience

when the wall street journal is covering it ... U is screwed

just my two cents ...
0
Pbr345

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 2
Reply with quote  #8 
On this episode of American greed,scumbag criminal Bernard RHansen,harvests countless millions,hides it in his secret vault,and the government just leaves him alone.Can the creditors get any residuals from his clown story?
0
oldAG

Member
Registered:
Posts: 59
Reply with quote  #9 
I don't have a stake in this as my Silver is all locked up out of dealer hands. However after reading the Creditors Meeting Transcript, it appears to me the trustee is playing hardball with everyone's stored metal, whatever that amount might still be. Far too much time was wasted on next to nothing and far too little with the Trustee who was the one needing to answer some hard questions since he was the one running the show and deciding who was going to receive stored metal and who wasn't based on whatever criteria he seems to be basing it on if it was physically segregated and labeled with someone's name. The one fact that bothers me the most is, he has the log that shows the most recent data as to what belongs to which investors. If it's in that storage room and it doesn't have that investors name on the item, it sounds like he's screwed even if they can account for it one  way or another. As an example, they may have opened an unmarked box of one type of Gold  one ounce rounds which contained 218 of them and the storage records might show a total of 218 of that particular gold coin being stored between 14 different people. I don't know what better evidence a rational person would need to tie those 218 coins to those 14 investors.

My IRA Silver was stored at the Delaware Depository before we withdrew all of it. None of it was segregated, however they kept meticulous records as to each type of Silver by weight, manufacture and date if that was a case as in a government round. They guaranteed you would receive exactly what was shipped to them by description but not the exact item. As in we did receive our 100 oz Engelhard bars and our 10 oz Engelhard bars. If I had shipped them 1,000 2005 ASE's, then I would have received 1,000 2005 ASE's. The point is, all the item in a storage area does not have to be specifically marked as belonging to a person to account for it as long as the storage records for that area can account for all of the items they can find in it are part of those records.
However in the case of those 214 Gold coins, if there were records showing they should have 314 of them and they can only find 214. I still say they are part of the stored goods, but for the record I would officially split those 214 proportionately between the owners of the 314 on the record books. It wouldn't be fair to just dump them into a pile of metal to be split by all stored owners or worse yet by everyone that is owed money by NWTM for every reason.

And how sick is that story about a personal friend of the owners that was allowed to install his own safe in NWTM's safe room and they broke into it and confiscated his metal as his name wasn't on the safe. Real or not, it's now probably up to that poor guy to prove he paid for the safe and had it installed  by providing sales records from wherever he bought it. And that probably won't be good enough to get his metal as they will probably insist he provide proof he bought the metal somewhere as well. This is one of those cases where the government says your guilty (or sorts) through confiscation until "you" can prove your innocent and maybe not then.

And for the record, I don't know where this Trustee is getting his information, but he has some bad dates. He said NWTM is less than 14 years old and I personally started buying from them back in the 1990's, which was almost 20 years ago. They sucked at delivering back then just like they did all the way up to 2016. I placed numerous orders from them and they all took weeks to arrive no matter how many times the person taking the phone order told me and everyone else the order would ship as soon as my money arrived. That never changed until ten plus years later when the State of Washington forced them to tell the truth on delivery dates. It didn't change anything, it didn't speed up the process, it just let everyone know how long they really had to wait. For those of us that were tuned into the internet back in the mid 90's, everyone was well aware of the long waits for your NWTM order, if you were willing to wait for the lower premiums involved. The owner says they have been in business since 1981 and the trustee says since around 2003 or 2004. I know it's been since the middle of the 90's since I came into the market and everyone was well aware of NWTM, so I can't say how long they have really been an actual mint but it has to be over 20 years for sure. There are records of the owner being in prison for a three year deal having something to do with guns I believe, but it also mentioned precious metals as well. So it is very possible that he was in business back then and also did three years for his crime while still owning NWTM. I'm sure there are people around that have been Silver stackers longer than I have that are still alive and of sound mind if not body that may know more about when NWTM actually became a functioning mint and or dealer.

I don't want anyone to get the impression I'm trying to stick up for the owner of NWTM, I'm just trying to get some of the misinformation corrected and I also hope that trustee can do a much better job of isolating the metal in that vault as belonging to anyone than might be the rightful owner, versus just tossing it into a pile for general distribution because he isn't using his head to tie 1 +1 = 2.
0
JG

Administrator
Registered:
Posts: 960
Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldAG
As an example, they may have opened an unmarked box of one type of Gold  one ounce rounds which contained 218 of them and the storage records might show a total of 218 of that particular gold coin being stored between 14 different people. I don't know what better evidence a rational person would need to tie those 218 coins to those 14 investors.


I'm guessing either one of two situations: [1] all the stored metal is there, just not in the right place(s), or [2] most of the stored metal is gone.

For Scenario #1, it should be easy. If they have $8M of metal, it's going to be pretty obvious. If there is $8M of metal, the Trustee cannot simply say "Oops! The sticky stuff on the labels was poor quality, all the name tags fell off. Since it cannot be identified properly, it's NWT Mint's property". Secured customers with lawyers are going to be screaming at him, and likely Ross Hansen as well (as it might mean the difference between freedom or not).

For Scenario #2, if there is $1M out of an original $8M of stored metal left, it's a sticky situation. It sounds like some metal is identifiable. Let's say $800K of that is identifiable. That legally is the property of the owners, and has to be sent back (sorry, as the U.S. Trustee would say, that is a decision for the court to make -- but so is whether I should be tried for a crime that occurred 200 years ago). So that would leave the excess metal, which likely will not have significant value compared to the $7M or so of metal that it backs. If there are 14 people with 218 gold one ounce rounds, and there are only 35 left, who gets them? Or could they be property of NWT? I'm guessing the court would have to decide that one, based on the evidence (e.g. were those 35 rounds found where all the other customer metal was?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldAG
And for the record, I don't know where this Trustee is getting his information, but he has some bad dates. He said NWTM is less than 14 years old and I personally started buying from them back in the 1990's, which was almost 20 years ago.... The owner says they have been in business since 1981 and the trustee says since around 2003 or 2004.


"Northwest Territorial Mint" was in existence at least as far back as 1989 per http://www.leagle.com/decision/19961041914P2d127_11034/ESTATE%20OF%20HANSEN . The BBB opened their file in 1997. So yes, the Trustee's statements that "Northwest Territorial Mint. Ross talked about it being around 14 years. It hasn't been around -- pardon me -- 35 years. It's been around 14 years. It was founded in 2003 while he was still in jail." appears to be false. As was the statements there about Ross Hansen being in jail in 2003. He was out of prison by 1995 per the Seattle Times.


0
oldAG

Member
Registered:
Posts: 59
Reply with quote  #11 
Calvert has stated he has completed the inventory of all metal now but has not provided a total Dollar amount. So everyone is still stuck with that $1+ million Dollar number identified as Stored goods as if that was all that they inventoried.

People need to know how far off from that $8+ million amount reported by individuals is potentially accounted for in the total inventory.

If there is only $4 million in total and the storage totals by individuals are correct, Lucy's got some serious splainin to do in court...

However if they came up with say $10 million, well then that's a real problem for the trustee. Since he is not providing that number, it makes me wonder if he was avoiding a potential fire storm that he knew would erupt in that meeting.

Of course that's just a guess on my  part, but it sure seems like a logical point to make during the meeting knowing there is great interest in the total value of the precious metal found when they counted it.
0
Boss

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 19
Reply with quote  #12 
I agree - hardly any details have been release - it was promised 5 weeks ago as "all will be revealed in 10 days" which after that passed morphed into "all will be revealed at the creditors meeting" - and the creditors meeting? practically nothing except - there is a "shortage" - the same thing said in the 2nd week of April!

So - absolutely - 1m of WHAT? 1m was in a box of 4m that wasn't in a box? 

This box stuff is BS?   For God's sake people bought metal and I don't care how it was thrown into a vault - nice and neat or too uneven to go safely near....  if they found
10m in the vault - if the storage customer metals and if the brands/types aren't quite right
then so be it - it can all be adjusted by liquidating at the very worst.

This whole inventory story is the most retarded BS thing I've ever heard

It is far more believable that 90% of the stored metal never existed - that would
make sense with the lack of insurance

Why is this so simple? - answer - there are only 102 storage customers!  and only 88
of them have a substantial dollar amount as listed on the schedules

So there are not 100,000 items that need to be tracked - more than likely somewhere
between 5,000 to 10,000

And the items themselves are self-identifying (1 oz bar, 10 oz bar, 100 oz bar)
They don't need to be weighed, assayed, or anything other than looked at
and write it down, shovel the item over - do the next.

No estimates about gold/silver breakdown from the storage contracts and
certainly nothing about the so called identified inventory.

Once you factor in a few high dollar amount storage customers with gold,
the silver ounces drops dramatically

People want to know if their metal is there or not.

For storage customers who actually brought their metal to be stored it
is even more ridiculous!  - they should have known to have all those
double eagles engraved with their full name and date of birth.  Maybe
they'd had a chance of getting them - oh wait - there not in a box with their
name on it - sorry you get nothing!







0
oldAG

Member
Registered:
Posts: 59
Reply with quote  #13 
One person has 1,400 Gold Maples in that mess worth nearly $1.8 million and that alone exceeds the amount they have identified, so you know they have not identified his Maples in this process. They may have counted far more than enough Gold Maples in that vault to account for his 1,400, but his name wasn't attached to any or at least not most of them.

I know I sure would want to see the list of items counted in those vaults that they didn't identify as belonging to anyone, especially if I had some goods stored in there that wasn't identified as mine.
0
Boss

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 19
Reply with quote  #14 
Exactly - the fact that NWTM failed to properly segregate and label the items should in no way penalize or invalidate anything due to the storage client.

Do you happen to know if these 1400 maples were purchased from NWTM and placed
straight into storage or were they shipped/brought to NWTM by the client for storage?

In other words, has the storage client ever actually seen these 1400 maples or was it
just something represented to them by NWTM on paper?

I maintain that most of this 8.2M in stored metal never existed.


0
oldAG

Member
Registered:
Posts: 59
Reply with quote  #15 
From the sound of the conversation, they were paid for and NWTM had to order them. Actually from the conversation if the person has the story correct, they didn't buy the Maples, but would have had to send in 1,400 ounces of Gold to do a like-kind exchange for the Gold Maples and then send them additional cash for the difference, unless they sent more than 1,400 ounces and it worked out to be 1,400 after commissions were paid for the exchange.

For anyone not familiar with a like-kind exchange, you are only allowed to do that with the same kind of metal and of the same purity according to IRS rules. .999 and .9999 would be the same, but 90% and .999 would not qualify because of the purity difference even though they would be the same metal. In this case NWTM talked about seeing the boxes of Maples coming in later.

Under IRS Rules, you can do a like-kind exchange of metals without paying any tax penalties on any potential gain difference, but you are not allowed to do that between different types of metal without paying potential capital gains. However, what you actually do which is not reported to the IRS is another matter. Then again some dealers will send you a 1099 form if the amount you sent in exceeds their set amount to trigger a 1099 for Silver bar sales. If that happens, you'll have to prove to the IRS what you actually did to avoid paying any potential capital gains. This should not happen at any dealer for a like-kind exchange, but tell that to their accounting staff that sends out the 1099 forms.

This person may have the story wrong and they exchanged a huge hoard of Silver for Gold Maples, but that would not be a like-kind exchange. It's hard to tell what really took place when they have a third party talking for them.

Good afternoon. My name is MatthewRice. I represent Steven Fox.Mr. Hansen, Mr. Fox entered into a like-kindmetals exchange with the mint, I believe negotiated with youpersonally. The mint's side of that exchange wasapproximately 1,400 fine gold 1-ounce Canadian Maple Leafcoins that Mr. Fox was under the impression, from you, weresegregated in a fashion on the mint's property, such that itcould be identified as his. Do you know where Mr. Fox's coinsare? And do you know whether or not they have been segregatedfor him?
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.