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 Would you be in favor of a plan to become a NWTM shareholder?
 Yes 4 50%
 No 4 50%
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Total votes: 8   Please or register an account to vote.


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Boss

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 19
Reply with quote  #1 
There is a new idea that some creditors have proposed as an alternative
to receiving the estimated 10% (or much much less) of what is owed to them.

First, this is presuming that NWTM is to continue in some way as a profitable company
as the Trustee has mentioned.

If that actually happens, the idea is that all unsecured creditors would become
shareholders of NWTM with each receiving an appropriate number of shares in
proportion to the amount they are owed in relation to the total amount owed to
all unsecured creditors.

Obviously these shares would upon issuance be worth very little initially,
but if the company were to continue, make profits, and perhaps even grow
over time these shares would increase in value and perhaps pay a dividend.

At this point this idea may seem far fetched but given the current situation
there may be nothing to lose if creditors were to support and accept this
option.

If you are an unsecured creditor - Take the poll - Would you be in favor of such a plan?
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GSS711

Junior Member
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Posts: 5
Reply with quote  #2 
In my opinion ,this is the first and only recommendation on behalf of the  creditors  that shows any kind of justice. In the end ,with the current macro-economic reality, this just might be ...fair compensation. It also does not in any way  take from the creditors good right,.. to conceivably sue the Attorney -General of Washington State for indifference to our plight and incompetence  that allowed this  theft to ever occur. We the creditors  have to start demanding justice and it begins with our ownership of the Company that owes us.
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oldAG

Member
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Posts: 55
Reply with quote  #3 
There is a problem with this concept and that is it depends on Medallic Art ending up as a possession of NWTM and not Hansen's and that other guys as they claim. It appears that Hansen is not going to wait another year for the trustee to take him to court for ownership rights with his filing suit for rights to the company now. This is the best thing that can happen now versus waiting six months or a year to start this fight as the pie looks like it's being drained at a fairly  fast pace for legal fees no matter which way the battle goes. If Hansen wins, how much profit is NWTM actually making off of the remainder of the business after paying Medallic Art the fees they claim are due and after losing possession of whatever equipment and inventory that might go along with that claim.

I don't buy the trustee's argument that he can prove NWTM was broke because of the amount of backorders back in 2009. NWTM has had those backorders for the past 20 years that I've been around and those before me warned about the long wait times for your order to ship even then. It's going to be a hard sell proving that NWTM was running a scam for over 20 years while being broke all that time and still managed to survive for the next 20+ years after be coming broke. Not to mention the fact NWTM invested a boatload of money back in 2008 to I believe quadruple their production capacity during that year when most dealers couldn't get inventory for many months on end. That had to take a great deal of cash and not something a company that has been broke for over a decade could do and they continued to maintain the lowest premiums for any dealer in the US. While almost every other dealer was charging massive premiums for their goods when they could get their hands on any, NWTM was still selling a 500 count box of rounds at 50 or 55 cents each in premiums. They didn't have to sell at those premiums to attract business as the trustee claimed, NWTM was for the most part was the only dealer in town and when the price of Silver dropped through the floor and delivery dates were pushed out to something like 14 weeks. But even that was a general shipping time frame they attached to all orders and those that ordered their one ounce rounds only were getting them delivered in four to five weeks.

I'm not trying to take sides, just bringing some reality to the table as the Trustee may very well lose his battle for ownership of Medallic Art, but keep in mind he is making $30K a month while he's doing his thing, not to mention the massive legal fees they have been running up.

I'm still not buying this loss of $7 million dollars of stored inventory because the trustee couldn't identify it as belonging to any specific person. I still haven't seen how much inventory he actually did count in those buildings, unless it's been posted somewhere that I haven't seen yet. The trustee was grabbing inventory everywhere he could and claiming it belonged to NWTM and has had to give some of it back to others that could prove they owned it.

Maybe the creditors have some information the rest of us don't have yet, but if not I would be far more concerned with what the trustee is doing than worry about some potential future return of their money a year from now based on his one statement a couple months ago that even he admitted was without merit. You can't claim a company is only worth 10 cents on the dollar if you've never accounted for all of the companies assets and as far as I know he hasn't stated any new numbers that begin to value NWTM actual value for a fire sale today and that's what he was stating that 10% was his estimate without any numbers to back it up.  But that didn't stop him from beginning his pitch for the ultimate take over of Medallic Art and the sale of NWTM in another year after that take over was successful. He just stated the company would be worth more than 10% a year from now with Medallic Art included in the sale.

I don't know if it's ever been discussed as to what share of NWTM assets the lawsuit has priority. If it's an even share, a higher priority or lower priority than the customers. That's a huge part of any split if he has anything other than a lower priority than the customers. But that really doesn't matter when it comes to splitting the assets today or next year if the priority remains the same.

I wouldn't confuse the issue with NWTM as being in the same boat as Bullion Direct where they are letting the owner have his company back through his mother as it's not worth much of anything with little inventory or assets to sell.

NWTM has millions in assets and god only knows how much value all of the technology and customer information is worth.

The trustee claims NWTM itself has no value as a functioning mint and dealer even though it's the largest private mint in the US, as if there would be no interested parties in taking over the operation with it massive customer base.

It would require investors to actually mint products first instead of selling and then minting to order, but that's a huge customer base and with real time shipping and friendly premiums, it could still be the largest retail mint in the US after they proved they are doing real time shipping and the word spread across the internet. I'm not talking about changing the product, but producing the same NWTM product they have been for decades that is located in safes and sock drawers from coast to coast.

Now that might sound far fetched, but you never know what someone is willing to gamble on as an investor and with all of the equipment, product and customer base, who knows how much NWTM is really worth as a functioning mint versus the nothing value the trustee has placed on it.

As far as someone taking over the current business and issuing stocks to creditors, I don't think that would attract any investors at all, other than someone wanting to come in for a song and dance to run the business as is. It's not a retail dealer, it's more of a coin shop on steroids selling US coins and specialty items. If the inventory wasn't already just laying there on the shelves, I seriously doubt they would be making all this money they reported. It's one thing to sell off existing inventory and it's another to buy and sell as a running business, especially if your selling inventory that "might" belong to another company that you are not paying for.

None of this has anything to do with rather Hansen belongs in jail for anything he may have done illegally, if they can prove it, then Tulving can sweep out a cell for him.

The fight for Medallic may very well prove to be an interesting legal issue and if that other guy actually owns 50%, I don't see why he should lose any part of his company because of what Hansen did or didn't do with the rest of NWTM, assuming it's actually a separate company like Hansen is suing for. It probably doesn't really matter to Hansen as that lawsuit will probably go right after Hansens share of Medallic Art as soon as he wins, if he wins the law suit.

Just look at the person owing 50% of Medallic Art as if he is someone owning stored inventory or someone owning equipment that belonged to him versus being tied to Hansen and wanting his nuts to roast just because, I understand the feeling. But wait for the facts to come through the court system as to rather it is a separate company and if he really owns 50%. The trustee has made more than one claim of facts only to be overturned by the judge so far, so don't count on anything he has said so far as if it's a given fact.

As far as suing the State, I don't know how far that will go until they can prove just how much of a real loss has been taken by NWTM and until the trustee has provided a detailed valuation of NWTM, no one has any idea what the actual loss is. If the trustee can prove the company has lost millions as reported, then they might have a chance, but if the company is worth somewhere near that value in a sale, is it a loss? I'm not suggesting it is worth anywhere near what the losses are reported to be, but you can bet the state will argue that point to the end of time if the trustee doesn't do his job right. And you can bet the state will use the same argument that NWTM has been using backorders for decades so that was never an indication of them being in default for decades as assumed. That will be another interesting fight to watch and probably very expensive for the creditors.

I think the greatest thing to uncover will be how much physical inventory was actually accounted for in those buildings versus how much was suppose to be in there in as stored inventory and IRA accounts, not how much the trustee could identify that belonged to those groups. Isn't that where the theft is suppose to have taken place with proof. If it's not there then Hansen stole the PM or so the charges go. I believe that is what they will ultimately use to charge the owner of Bullion Direct, not that he was using new money to fill old orders, which is what Hansen is being accused of doing with his customers for decades. Tulving was doing the same thing and they didn't charge him with any crime for that, but he didn't have stored inventory and especially not stored IRA inventory  that wasn't there. My guess is they just settled with a simple charge that Tulving agreed to and that eliminated the court fight. I don't know why Bullion Directs owner is not in jail yet, that really has me puzzled.

God I'm glad I bought my NWTM rounds a long time ago, this is one hell of a sh!t storm.
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Boss

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 19
Reply with quote  #4 

I agree that the valuation of NWTM is questionable, now even more so with ownership
dispute of Medallic. 

The Business had "NO RECORDS", so what the Trustee came up with back in May
as far as assets was yes, by all means a quick estimate.

As far as the Trustee's plans and comments about the future, the bullion side
of the business was a money loser but the medallion part was profitable.

I would not be so sure about massive capital investment made by NWTM over
the years, given the amount of money coming in. 

The Trustee that showed that raw silver purchases never came anywhere near the amount needed to fulfill bullion orders.   

Money coming in for new bullion orders was being used to refund long delinquent bullion orders and stored metals (if they existed ever) were used to fulfill other delinquent bullion orders.

PONZI / THEFT / FRAUD

Most employees were working in hostile environment, in fear, and the others
acted as accomplices with the operators (Hansen & Erdman)

Direct dealings with NWTM just after the bankruptcy but BEFORE the Trustee was appointed confirm this.

When calling about stored metal, the person IN CHARGE of stored metals had
NO RECORD of any metals stored in my name.

This was the NWTM bullion "business" model, it had nothing to do with making products.

The Washington Attorney General received thousands of complaints even AFTER
the 2007 consent decree and DID NOTHING to investigate them.

Victim customers who ordered non-NWTM minted bullion products months before
the bankruptcy got nothing!    

So forget all of this supposed value that is being hidden by the Trustee.

He realized immediately WHAT the bullion part of the business was.

IF - IF there is value it is in the medallion part and if the creditors have
any chance - it lies there.


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GSS711

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 5
Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldAG
There is a problem with this concept and that is it depends on Medallic Art ending up as a possession of NWTM and not Hansen's and that other guys as they claim. It appears that Hansen is not going to wait another year for the trustee to take him to court for ownership rights with his filing suit for rights to the company now. This is the best thing that can happen now versus waiting six months or a year to start this fight as the pie looks like it's being drained at a fairly  fast pace for legal fees no matter which way the battle goes. If Hansen wins, how much profit is NWTM actually making off of the remainder of the business after paying Medallic Art the fees they claim are due and after losing possession of whatever equipment and inventory that might go along with that claim.

I don't buy the trustee's argument that he can prove NWTM was broke because of the amount of backorders back in 2009. NWTM has had those backorders for the past 20 years that I've been around and those before me warned about the long wait times for your order to ship even then. It's going to be a hard sell proving that NWTM was running a scam for over 20 years while being broke all that time and still managed to survive for the next 20+ years after be coming broke. Not to mention the fact NWTM invested a boatload of money back in 2008 to I believe quadruple their production capacity during that year when most dealers couldn't get inventory for many months on end. That had to take a great deal of cash and not something a company that has been broke for over a decade could do and they continued to maintain the lowest premiums for any dealer in the US. While almost every other dealer was charging massive premiums for their goods when they could get their hands on any, NWTM was still selling a 500 count box of rounds at 50 or 55 cents each in premiums. They didn't have to sell at those premiums to attract business as the trustee claimed, NWTM was for the most part was the only dealer in town and when the price of Silver dropped through the floor and delivery dates were pushed out to something like 14 weeks. But even that was a general shipping time frame they attached to all orders and those that ordered their one ounce rounds only were getting them delivered in four to five weeks.

I'm not trying to take sides, just bringing some reality to the table as the Trustee may very well lose his battle for ownership of Medallic Art, but keep in mind he is making $30K a month while he's doing his thing, not to mention the massive legal fees they have been running up.

I'm still not buying this loss of $7 million dollars of stored inventory because the trustee couldn't identify it as belonging to any specific person. I still haven't seen how much inventory he actually did count in those buildings, unless it's been posted somewhere that I haven't seen yet. The trustee was grabbing inventory everywhere he could and claiming it belonged to NWTM and has had to give some of it back to others that could prove they owned it.

Maybe the creditors have some information the rest of us don't have yet, but if not I would be far more concerned with what the trustee is doing than worry about some potential future return of their money a year from now based on his one statement a couple months ago that even he admitted was without merit. You can't claim a company is only worth 10 cents on the dollar if you've never accounted for all of the companies assets and as far as I know he hasn't stated any new numbers that begin to value NWTM actual value for a fire sale today and that's what he was stating that 10% was his estimate without any numbers to back it up.  But that didn't stop him from beginning his pitch for the ultimate take over of Medallic Art and the sale of NWTM in another year after that take over was successful. He just stated the company would be worth more than 10% a year from now with Medallic Art included in the sale.

I don't know if it's ever been discussed as to what share of NWTM assets the lawsuit has priority. If it's an even share, a higher priority or lower priority than the customers. That's a huge part of any split if he has anything other than a lower priority than the customers. But that really doesn't matter when it comes to splitting the assets today or next year if the priority remains the same.

I wouldn't confuse the issue with NWTM as being in the same boat as Bullion Direct where they are letting the owner have his company back through his mother as it's not worth much of anything with little inventory or assets to sell.

NWTM has millions in assets and god only knows how much value all of the technology and customer information is worth.

The trustee claims NWTM itself has no value as a functioning mint and dealer even though it's the largest private mint in the US, as if there would be no interested parties in taking over the operation with it massive customer base.

It would require investors to actually mint products first instead of selling and then minting to order, but that's a huge customer base and with real time shipping and friendly premiums, it could still be the largest retail mint in the US after they proved they are doing real time shipping and the word spread across the internet. I'm not talking about changing the product, but producing the same NWTM product they have been for decades that is located in safes and sock drawers from coast to coast.

Now that might sound far fetched, but you never know what someone is willing to gamble on as an investor and with all of the equipment, product and customer base, who knows how much NWTM is really worth as a functioning mint versus the nothing value the trustee has placed on it.

As far as someone taking over the current business and issuing stocks to creditors, I don't think that would attract any investors at all, other than someone wanting to come in for a song and dance to run the business as is. It's not a retail dealer, it's more of a coin shop on steroids selling US coins and specialty items. If the inventory wasn't already just laying there on the shelves, I seriously doubt they would be making all this money they reported. It's one thing to sell off existing inventory and it's another to buy and sell as a running business, especially if your selling inventory that "might" belong to another company that you are not paying for.

None of this has anything to do with rather Hansen belongs in jail for anything he may have done illegally, if they can prove it, then Tulving can sweep out a cell for him.

The fight for Medallic may very well prove to be an interesting legal issue and if that other guy actually owns 50%, I don't see why he should lose any part of his company because of what Hansen did or didn't do with the rest of NWTM, assuming it's actually a separate company like Hansen is suing for. It probably doesn't really matter to Hansen as that lawsuit will probably go right after Hansens share of Medallic Art as soon as he wins, if he wins the law suit.

Just look at the person owing 50% of Medallic Art as if he is someone owning stored inventory or someone owning equipment that belonged to him versus being tied to Hansen and wanting his nuts to roast just because, I understand the feeling. But wait for the facts to come through the court system as to rather it is a separate company and if he really owns 50%. The trustee has made more than one claim of facts only to be overturned by the judge so far, so don't count on anything he has said so far as if it's a given fact.

As far as suing the State, I don't know how far that will go until they can prove just how much of a real loss has been taken by NWTM and until the trustee has provided a detailed valuation of NWTM, no one has any idea what the actual loss is. If the trustee can prove the company has lost millions as reported, then they might have a chance, but if the company is worth somewhere near that value in a sale, is it a loss? I'm not suggesting it is worth anywhere near what the losses are reported to be, but you can bet the state will argue that point to the end of time if the trustee doesn't do his job right. And you can bet the state will use the same argument that NWTM has been using backorders for decades so that was never an indication of them being in default for decades as assumed. That will be another interesting fight to watch and probably very expensive for the creditors.

I think the greatest thing to uncover will be how much physical inventory was actually accounted for in those buildings versus how much was suppose to be in there in as stored inventory and IRA accounts, not how much the trustee could identify that belonged to those groups. Isn't that where the theft is suppose to have taken place with proof. If it's not there then Hansen stole the PM or so the charges go. I believe that is what they will ultimately use to charge the owner of Bullion Direct, not that he was using new money to fill old orders, which is what Hansen is being accused of doing with his customers for decades. Tulving was doing the same thing and they didn't charge him with any crime for that, but he didn't have stored inventory and especially not stored IRA inventory  that wasn't there. My guess is they just settled with a simple charge that Tulving agreed to and that eliminated the court fight. I don't know why Bullion Directs owner is not in jail yet, that really has me puzzled.

God I'm glad I bought my NWTM rounds a long time ago, this is one hell of a sh!t storm.
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GSS711

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 5
Reply with quote  #6 
Some of your arguments  have merit ,most especially concerning compensation  that is for fixing the problem ,that may only serve to enhance the problem. This is the reason why this situation needs to be resolved quick. Where is the Attorney General on all this ?  The AG  could have easily placed restrictions on NWTMints  operations when they learned in 2007  that there was an obvious stall tactic to get customer orders cleared or filled.. They should have investigated further ,separating customer accounts from operational account. We would not have been in this situation had they acted responsibly. The practice of keeping Operational accounts separate  from Customer Accounts  is in fact in existence  and working very well at other Private Mints throughout the World .. If it is not normal procedure in Washington State ,it does not mean it should not be implemented when a situation is relevant. When I  deposited money on account ,I was always lead to believe this was the practice of the Mint. I have data that can strongly suggest that was the case with my personal situation .

"I don't buy the trustee's argument that he can prove NWTM was broke because of the amount of backorders back in 2009."

   A=    A balance sheet can answer the question.

"NWTM invested a boatload of money back in 2008 to I believe quadruple their production capacity during that year when most dealers couldn't get inventory for many months on end."

A=If they were using  profit or a loan to expand business  ,then that's fine  ,...but that is not the same as using the  cash  from a customer order, and stalling until new orders came in  ,which is exactly why they  held peoples orders without delivery for extended  times and charged a minimal of   50/year storage likely to keep from having to turn over something they did not have  and  why they  had such a small mark up .They always had to stay one week ahead of disaster.   Can't you see the difference in a business plan of expansion and a Bernie Madoff type plan of doing business ? Where was the Attorney General ?  The AG office is filled with people on excellent salaries, great benefits which likely carry top notch pensions . I expect them to do thorough work, that keeps situations like this from ever happening . They had opportunity ,...Did they not ?

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JG

Administrator
Registered:
Posts: 955
Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldAG
I don't buy the trustee's argument that he can prove NWTM was broke because of the amount of backorders back in 2009. ... While almost every other dealer was charging massive premiums for their goods when they could get their hands on any, NWTM was still selling a 500 count box of rounds at 50 or 55 cents each in premiums. They didn't have to sell at those premiums to attract business as the trustee claimed...

I'm still not buying this loss of $7 million dollars of stored inventory because the trustee couldn't identify it as belonging to any specific person. I still haven't seen how much inventory he actually did count in those buildings...

I don't know if it's ever been discussed as to what share of NWTM assets the lawsuit has priority. If it's an even share, a higher priority or lower priority than the customers. ...

The fight for Medallic may very well prove to be an interesting legal issue and if that other guy actually owns 50%, I don't see why he should lose any part of his company because of what Hansen did or didn't do with the rest of NWTM, assuming it's actually a separate company like Hansen is suing for.


Let me address a few things.

The Trustee said at the Creditors' Meeting: "And from our preliminary analysis, the company has been losing money since 2007." So I don't think it was based just on the backlog. I also believe he was referring to the 50 cent premiums in the last few months (something about how they had to lower the premiums to increase sales to get more money to buy metal).

As for the inventory, there are 2 types of inventory: the standard business inventory, and bullion. They have a very good idea of the standard business inventory (including Ross' satellite phone). But it sounds like there was very, very little bullion. $1M or so was attributed to storage customers, but there is zero indication that there is anywhere close to the $7M more of stored metal that they were supposed to have for customers (the metal that if they sold it would have been fraud).

The person who won the defamation lawsuit sent in his Proof of Claim forms as non-priority, unsecured debt. So if customers are allowed the first $2,850 or so of their claim as a priority "deposit", that would come before the judgment.

Medallic is interesting. If Ross bought a car dealership with a friend, there would be no issue. The problem here is that it was 100% Ross' idea (from my understanding), and his silent partner was an NWTM customer Ross convinced to invest in Medallic. Ross' $2M share came from money that was taken out of NWTM. NWTM (which Ross is the 100% owner of, CEO/President) has claimed that Medallic is a subsidiary/division of theirs. By calling it a subsidiary/division, he is effectively saying "Hey, if we go bankrupt, this property is part or all ours." And it is completely related to and intertwined with NWTM. It started with 14 employees, and now is down to just Ross and his girlfriend on the payroll. Medallic claims to have a "team of full-time graphic designers" -- obvious Ross and Diane aren't full time graphic designers, so who is paying for that? From a non-legal perspective, Medallic *is* owned by NWTM. From a corporate documentation standpoint, it is 50% owned by Ross and 50% by his partner. The question is who legally owns it given the circumstances.



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oldAG

Member
Registered:
Posts: 55
Reply with quote  #8 

"A=If they were using  profit or a loan to expand business  ,then that's fine  ,...but that is not the same as using the  cash  from a customer order, and stalling until new orders came in  ,which is exactly why they  held peoples orders without delivery for extended  times and charged a minimal of   50/year storage likely to keep from having to turn over something they did not have  and  why they  had such a small mark up .They always had to stay one week ahead of disaster.   Can't you see the difference in a business plan of expansion and a Bernie Madoff type plan of doing business ? Where was the Attorney General ?  The AG office is filled with people on excellent salaries, great benefits which likely carry top notch pensions . I expect them to do thorough work, that keeps situations like this from ever happening . They had opportunity ,...Did they not ?"


Can you  honestly believe NWTM or any organization of his size could stay afloat for decades by living off of new orders coming in and delivering them a couple months later when new money came it to pay for them. It doesn't work and can't work. The spot price rises and falls making that an impossible way to survive long term. You can do it for a short term when the Gods are on your side, but that's all.

As far as NWTM dropping their premium to attract new orders, they had the lowest premiums on the market from before I started buying in the 90's until 2009 and then they were more in line with just about most of the other large online dealers, except when they would run short term sales for several weeks. Which is something they had been doing a couple times a year since 2009 until this last one just before all hell broke loose.

As far as the AG and those complaints back before 2008, It is my understanding they were all about the promises made for quick deliveries once your payment arrived which was an outright lie which only fooled new customers and they were always lined up because of the lowest premiums on the market.
There was no proof that NWTM was not delivery any goods just the long wait time. There excuse is they buy Silver and produce to orders, creating longer wait times as volume increases. The AG settled the dispute buy forcing NWTM to provide a delivery time with every order, which they had to follow or allow the customer to take a refund or accept a delay in shipment. It was a bit more detailed than that but that is the basics. So I don't think there was ever an investigation into the solvency of NWTM, just the lying to customers about real time delivers they wanted stopped and it worked. NWTM went on as usual for another 8 years until this defamation lawsuit turned their world upside down.

Now people can believe what they want about how NWTM ended up in this financial mess and how much of a financial mess they are really in, but no one can point a finger at anyone for stealing anything until everything has been accounted for and that has not happened and why are people not screaming for those details from the Trusteed?

Just because the Trustee couldn't account for $7 in PM that was suppose to be in those vaults marked for specific individuals, does not mean much more or even all of it was not there until he provides a detailed listing of every piece of inventory in those vaults. Now I see the creditors fighting over the inventory that was marked for someone stating it may be mismarked by bad booking records and maybe it actually belongs to me. Meaning I'd rather force a split and take 1/8th of something versus nothing because my name wasn't on a box anywhere to be found. So now we have creditors trying to take something that did belong to some lucky investor that did have proper record keeping and force them to forfeit their good fortune to the benefit of those that didn't.

Where is the fight with the Trustee over all of the inventory that was counted in those vaults that can be accounted for to justify it belonging to those that are not properly marked as such. That's where the fight should be, not trying to steal from each other.

If he counted another $7 million in unmarked boxes, where is the argument other that lousy booking. If he only counted another $3 million then there is $4 million missing and Hansen has a lot of explaining to do to a judge at his trail. But I still contend that potential other $3 million or whatever that count was is what the creditors should be fighting tooth and nail after, not each other.

I think the problem has always been that the Trustee has always needed to get his hands on as much PM as possible to try and keep the company running to pay for expenses as long as possible and a nice stack of unaccounted for PM would go a long way in that direction.

Since everyone else seems to know more about these proceeding than I do, just how much inventory "did" the trustee report counting in those vaults and did he provide a detailed listing of that count???

And you can't compare what a financial broker does with a customers investment money to what a PM dealer does with his customers PM. We don't give NWTM a million dollars and ask him to buy and sell PM at will for us.

The vast majority of Madoff money was one way into his funds, while the vast majority of money going into NWTM was returned back to the customers in the form of physical silver while only a tiny fraction was kept in storage. So there was never a huge slush fund to steal from. I don't know when NWTM actually stopped the practice of storing PM for their customers, but when Bullion Direct went belly up I looked at other dealers using the same practice and found many to my surprise but not NWTM. Not that they had returned their stored inventory, but no longer advertised they would store inventory for you. Why they stopped I have no idea!!

And the last issue of NWTM going broke in 2007 is just a period the trustee is trying to justify for his case to win control of Medallic Art. I can see no change in any of NWTM business practices going back into the 90's, at least nothing that was visible to the public.

The bottom line, everyone needs to know if Hansen is really a crook that needs to move in with Tulving or if the Trustee is screwing with the records for his own reasons.
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oldAG

Member
Registered:
Posts: 55
Reply with quote  #9 
PS What ever happened to the trail of inventory between Pan American Mining and NWTM and just how that worked? I only heard Hansen mention getting some Silver from one source during the creditors meeting and that was a small amount if I remember correctly and I know there was no mention of Pan American Mining at all.

You have to wonder just how many company records have been lost working up to the final results of the lawsuit that made the water as muddy as possible for them to make any  claims, but also made it a disaster for the Trustee as well.

I don't know if anyone is looking down that rabbit hole, but there might be a huge surprise waiting at the other end!!!

I'll just say I was led to believe Pan American Mining was supplying one hell of a lot of their total needs in the past, how that applied to 2015 business I have no idea.
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GSS711

Junior Member
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Posts: 5
Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldAG

"A=If they were using  profit or a loan to expand business  ,then that's fine  ,...but that is not the same as using the  cash  from a customer order, and stalling until new orders came in  ,which is exactly why they  held peoples orders without delivery for extended  times and charged a minimal of   50/year storage likely to keep from having to turn over something they did not have  and  why they  had such a small mark up .They always had to stay one week ahead of disaster.   Can't you see the difference in a business plan of expansion and a Bernie Madoff type plan of doing business ? Where was the Attorney General ?  The AG office is filled with people on excellent salaries, great benefits which likely carry top notch pensions . I expect them to do thorough work, that keeps situations like this from ever happening . They had opportunity ,...Did they not ?"


Can you  honestly believe NWTM or any organization of his size could stay afloat for decades by living off of new orders coming in and delivering them a couple months later when new money came it to pay for them. It doesn't work and can't work. The spot price rises and falls making that an impossible way to survive long term. You can do it for a short term when the Gods are on your side, but that's all.

As far as NWTM dropping their premium to attract new orders, they had the lowest premiums on the market from before I started buying in the 90's until 2009 and then they were more in line with just about most of the other large online dealers, except when they would run short term sales for several weeks. Which is something they had been doing a couple times a year since 2009 until this last one just before all hell broke loose.

As far as the AG and those complaints back before 2008, It is my understanding they were all about the promises made for quick deliveries once your payment arrived which was an outright lie which only fooled new customers and they were always lined up because of the lowest premiums on the market.
There was no proof that NWTM was not delivery any goods just the long wait time. There excuse is they buy Silver and produce to orders, creating longer wait times as volume increases. The AG settled the dispute buy forcing NWTM to provide a delivery time with every order, which they had to follow or allow the customer to take a refund or accept a delay in shipment. It was a bit more detailed than that but that is the basics. So I don't think there was ever an investigation into the solvency of NWTM, just the lying to customers about real time delivers they wanted stopped and it worked. NWTM went on as usual for another 8 years until this defamation lawsuit turned their world upside down.

Now people can believe what they want about how NWTM ended up in this financial mess and how much of a financial mess they are really in, but no one can point a finger at anyone for stealing anything until everything has been accounted for and that has not happened and why are people not screaming for those details from the Trusteed?

Just because the Trustee couldn't account for $7 in PM that was suppose to be in those vaults marked for specific individuals, does not mean much more or even all of it was not there until he provides a detailed listing of every piece of inventory in those vaults. Now I see the creditors fighting over the inventory that was marked for someone stating it may be mismarked by bad booking records and maybe it actually belongs to me. Meaning I'd rather force a split and take 1/8th of something versus nothing because my name wasn't on a box anywhere to be found. So now we have creditors trying to take something that did belong to some lucky investor that did have proper record keeping and force them to forfeit their good fortune to the benefit of those that didn't.

Where is the fight with the Trustee over all of the inventory that was counted in those vaults that can be accounted for to justify it belonging to those that are not properly marked as such. That's where the fight should be, not trying to steal from each other.

If he counted another $7 million in unmarked boxes, where is the argument other that lousy booking. If he only counted another $3 million then there is $4 million missing and Hansen has a lot of explaining to do to a judge at his trail. But I still contend that potential other $3 million or whatever that count was is what the creditors should be fighting tooth and nail after, not each other.

I think the problem has always been that the Trustee has always needed to get his hands on as much PM as possible to try and keep the company running to pay for expenses as long as possible and a nice stack of unaccounted for PM would go a long way in that direction.

Since everyone else seems to know more about these proceeding than I do, just how much inventory "did" the trustee report counting in those vaults and did he provide a detailed listing of that count???

And you can't compare what a financial broker does with a customers investment money to what a PM dealer does with his customers PM. We don't give NWTM a million dollars and ask him to buy and sell PM at will for us.

The vast majority of Madoff money was one way into his funds, while the vast majority of money going into NWTM was returned back to the customers in the form of physical silver while only a tiny fraction was kept in storage. So there was never a huge slush fund to steal from. I don't know when NWTM actually stopped the practice of storing PM for their customers, but when Bullion Direct went belly up I looked at other dealers using the same practice and found many to my surprise but not NWTM. Not that they had returned their stored inventory, but no longer advertised they would store inventory for you. Why they stopped I have no idea!!

And the last issue of NWTM going broke in 2007 is just a period the trustee is trying to justify for his case to win control of Medallic Art. I can see no change in any of NWTM business practices going back into the 90's, at least nothing that was visible to the public.

The bottom line, everyone needs to know if Hansen is really a crook that needs to move in with Tulving or if the Trustee is screwing with the records for his own reasons.
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GSS711

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Reply with quote  #11 
  "Can you  honestly believe NWTM or any organization of his size could stay afloat for decades by living off of new orders coming in and delivering them a couple months later when new money came it to pay for them."

YES  ,but the implication is not decades ,but several years.  it sounds like Hansen used NWTM as his own personal piggy bank for his lifestyle. When things didn't go well,  IE; sales, silver contracts ,labor problems etc... he likely kept spending .He was  very likely a very poor manager and he more over,  believed that a  huge change to the upside in the silver market  (people  buying  through fear) would enable him  to pay all debts in one mighty year. It just did not happen. I've read about  people waiting almost a year for delivery and for the AG not impose some sort of governance over NWTM in 2007 was incredibly na├»ve or crooked.  Like I've said, other mints around the World operate successfully by keeping customer accounts separated at all times from Operations until  shipping has occurred. As soon as the Mint has sent an insured product off in the mail, they get to take proceeds  from the customers account and fund the operational account.it is a very good system for the Mint ,because they need not worry about being burned . Margins are sometimes so close ,they shouldn't be burdened .
I really could care less if in Washington State ,they don't see that as viable business operations because it does in fact work and what they did  (nothing )has created this monster that they need to take some responsibility for. Ignorance ,because they just don't do that in Washington State is no defense. It is their job to defend against fraud in any legal manor and imposing  a restriction on a company with the  delivery complaints  already known in 2007  was justifiable. If they're not delivering ,there must be a problem in their accounts so by imposing the separate account restrictions and monitoring it until problems ceased  would have been the prudent and professional course of action.
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oldAG

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Reply with quote  #12 
Hansen was a dick to deal with because of his lying to his customers, but I don't know that you can call anyone that starts a mint and turns it into the largest private mint in the United States a poor manager. That had to take a lot of smart moves over the decades or he would never kept growing let alone survived the 80's and 90's. So whatever he did, he managed to do a lot more right over three decades than he did wrong.

In regards to the State of Washington and their responsibility, that will be settled in court if it ever goes that far. I always understood the problem as being customer complaints regarding false and misleading shipping quotes. Nothing new and no one to claim otherwise. The State took care of that by forcing them to provide honest shipping quotes and they did, what more would you expect from the state. NWTM had been operating the same way for over a decade that I was aware of by that time and probably since the beginning from the way others talked. You didn't see a stack of complaints regarding stolen money or any other problems, just shipments taking forever and being lied to. If this type of action would require every state AG to conduct a complete forensic audit of every company that they have too many complaints about, we would all be up in arms about the massive size, money wasted by these intrusive AG departments around the country prying into every aspect of our lives like everyone complains about the IRS. To be clear, how many people have been involved with this trustees investigation into NWTM operation and how much information is still lacking for the creditors after all these months and after how many hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spent so far. What would the state AG do, stick his head in with some auditors and say, it doesn't look right so far, so we demand you close shop or send in a second team of auditors to do a more complete audit. Where does he stop and what authority would he actually have at what point in time to do anything different. When do we appoint the AG to play the roll of god in our business society? In the first place the only thing that would show up as a problem would be the missing stored inventory if they knew what they where looking for and had the records to actually check. Was there a problem with stored inventory back in 2007? The whole concept of putting the state AG on the spot as our protector and holding him responsible for anything that goes wrong because he was made aware of some problems is ridiculous in my opinion. If investors where complaining about not having access to their stored inventory, that would be a different story, but they were not. 


On this other subject of the Ponzi scheme, let's get one thing straight from the beginning, people have been accusing NWTM of a Ponzi scheme because they have been backordering shipments for decades and that is what one person or another is saying is their proof.

If it was a Ponzi scheme back in the 90's because they were broke, it was a Ponzi scheme in 2007 and 2016 as well. You can't use the same argument to fit the justification for different arguments at different points in time.

NWTM was either in default back in the 90's or earlier because this so called Ponzi scheme or they were not and it was their business practices of doing it this way. How things ended up has nothing to do with how they ran their operation for decades or we wouldn't be talking about this today. NWTM would have been a history lesson from the distant past.

It's impossible for anyone to say NWTM stole money from the stored inventory over the years to run their business and also increase it's size in both added business and added equipment, it just doesn't work. The most anyone can say so far is there is approximately $7 million missing from stored inventory not counting for the inventory that was counted and not published by the trustee.

Did Hansen actually steal inventory that didn't belong to him or lease it as some would claim, I don't buy this lease concept myself or did the Trustee actually count a lot more inventory that belongs to those investors that just wasn't properly marked because Hansen ran a poor bookkeeping system, but it was actually their according to their paperwork and could be accounted for?

I'm not trying to defend Hansen at all, he may very well have shifted a ton of cash and Silver away from NWTM over the last year or so in advance of this impending lawsuit to try and protect his future screwing his customers or it may have taken years of bad business practice as being speculated. It also may not be as bad a loss as we have been lead to believe until we see all the real numbers from the Trustee. Hansen seemed to believe his company was worth many millions more than the trustee was even contemplating according to his testimony at the creditors meeting.

NWTM used basically the same concept as a regular dealer with regards to their orders. Replace existing sales with new inventory at today's spot price.

The difference between the two, the dealer doesn't make anything and has to order new stock to replace his current inventory at today's spot price, assuming he has sufficient sales to justify a new buy. This is how the dealer can buy and sell no matter which direction the spot price is moving, as long as he continues to replace his sales with new inventory at the same price he is selling.

A mint is in a different situation, they can buy raw inventory at the current spot price and sell it at whatever the market will bring as sales comes in. But a mint has employees to keep busy and sales are not always constant, so how do they balance the price they pay for Silver with the price they sell it for.

One way is for the mint to take orders at today's prices and buy bulk Silver at today's prices to cover the amount of Silver needed for those orders. Of course that is only practical for the larger mints of which NWTM falls into that category.

Then the mint goes into producing the products they have just sold. If the sales are greater than the production capacity, the time frame for delivery gets extended, but the process continues.

The advantages of this approach is deliveries are always in the future and you can better manage your production schedule and labor force, however it does little to please your customer base with long delays in shipping. Plus you never have to stop taking orders, just extend the delivery time no matter how great the sales volume.

It also does not require you to maintain a huge investment in a standing inventory that you are trying to replace with sales.

The other way is to function like a dealer and invest massive amounts up front to obtain a huge inventory to work from that you never deplete, only replace at today's spot prices as you sell, you buy new raw material at the same price. The only problem is, you can never stock enough inventory to cover any sales situations and you will run out from time to time, especially in a retail shortage.

That is the simple form of maintaining your inventory and living off the profit margins if you happen to have the millions to invest in inventory that you can afford to maintain forever.

This latter method is obviously the preferred method for all investors, but the hardest for the mint to maintain and always stay open and have inventory available to deliver at all times.

Now this is not to say any mint or dealer can't play the market and gamble on the price going up or down in hopes of hitting an extra huge score like everyone else, but they are not doing anything other than gambling like the rest of us. Ask Tulving!!!

There are something's that never change no matter if your running a coin shop, private mint or soda shop, you have to live off of your profits or die.
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oldAG

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Reply with quote  #13 
I have to address one additional issue regarding the Ponzi scheme theory.

The only way that would work for decades is if you could keep adding additional weeks of backorders to keep funding your Ponzi scheme and that didn't happen.

Actually it worked in the opposite direction at the time frame when NWTM is accused of being in default back in 2007.

During the peak of Silvers slide in 2008, NWTM's backorders were extended out to 14 weeks. If they were in default and relying on new orders only to fill existing orders, they could never have recovered from those long delays and yet they did.

I'd like to know how they managed to cut that wait time in half at one point and still manage to keep their doors open while they were supposedly robbing Peter to pay Paul on a weekly basis to survive for decades?

Again I'd like to point out the Trustee wants to take over Medallic Art and is trying to prove NWTM did not have the funds to buy it as they were in default back in 2007 based on what, backorders?

Just remember the backorders were up to 14 weeks during 2008 and then they were able to cut that time frame in half.

This would have been after stealing $2 million to cover Hansen's share of Medallic Art's purchase and more than likely the trustee want's to prove he stole the other $3 million that the other person never contributed as well.

No doubt Hansen took the $2 million as he claims it was his right as an owners draw, it's the Trustees job to try and prove NWTM was in default back then and he had no available funds to draw from.

On top of a ton of money spent during 2008 to expand production capacity, which is not cheap in the minting industry.

How does any manufacture which employs over 100 people manage to stay in business for decades while losing money every day, it just doesn't make sense, it can't be done other than in banking or our government. 
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JG

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldAG
How does any manufacture which employs over 100 people manage to stay in business for decades while losing money every day, it just doesn't make sense, it can't be done other than in banking or our government. 


It looks like the custom minting side was profitable, but the bullion business was bleeding money. For example, in 2014 NWTM lost $2M in bullion buybacks, and in 2015 lost $2.9M in refunds.

In 2013, NWTM did $158M of bullion sales. In 2014-2015, however, they did only about $75M of bullion sales each year. Why the large loss of sales, I do not know. But compare that to the $231M that Tulving did in 2013 with about 10 employees (or the $675M in sales Tulving did in 2011).

At a 2% margin, $75M of sales brings in $1.4M -- which has to cover shipping, insurance, rent, payroll, etc. It isn't nearly enough to cover NWTM's expenses. Add in the massive legal expenses over the past few years, and they were doomed.

Assuming that they were solvent in 2008, that would mean that in the 8 years since then, they lost over $5M/year (they owe $43M not including the judgment). $5M coincidentally is about how much they were paying annually for payroll.

If the scamming (poaching storage metal, using customer funds while customers were waiting for orders) was going on for only 2 years, for example, then that would be $20M lost each year. That just doesn't seem plausible to me.

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oldAG

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Reply with quote  #15 

Those are interesting numbers, but who provided them and for what purpose? Did Hansen provide them for the judgment or has the Trustee provided them since supposedly there were not any real financial records kept for the past four years?

How did NWTM lose $2 million in buybacks in 2014 when all they had to do was turn them back around to fill customer orders or are you talking about orders that did not ship and the spot price rose enough where it became more profitable to sell their order back at the spot price versus taking delivery of their order, I'm not sure what you mean by buy backs?

I also don't understand how they lost $2.9 million do to refunds, if they didn't ship the orders then they were just refunding the customers money. Again that would only be a loss if they were paying the customer more than what the customer had paid them.

I can agree that they might have only had a 2% margin for profits, but that would be their profit margin not before expenses but after. Their premium for almost all of 2014 and most of 2015 was over $1.00 per ounce at a minimum at the wholesale level and more at their online store. So their profit margin before expenses would have been at least 6% and higher on each order depending on quantity and which department they were ordered from.

I'm not sure what your looking at when you say custom minting, but NWTM has been a supplier of Silver products to dealers for decades just like they supplied their own brand of products, but only whatever the dealer has requested they produce as a generic product or with the dealers name stamped on them.

Yes we can all request our own special minting of anything we want at a price from them just like any dealer or business for a special occasion.

What I'm saying is, people shouldn't confuse what Medallic Art does with what NWTM has been doing for decades as a mint producing brand named products for themselves and others while also producing generic products others have chosen. That is and has been their core business long before Medallic came along. I know back in 2008 NWTM stopped producing generic products for other dealers during the shortage and concentrated on producing everything for themselves as the only game in town so to speak. Hansen was believed to have stated it was better to keep all the profits by selling his own products than selling them to other dealers at wholesale prices during the shortage.

As far as trying to justify any of the numbers that took place during any years, that would be more of an impossible task unless NWTM had actually produced financial records and that hasn't taken place for several. So the only real numbers coming forward are being provided by the trustee and he has been far from providing anything that would resemble a vote of confidence that I can see so far. He has an agenda and with a game plan for his future and why hasn't he ever provided the most basic information that everyone should have been provided months ago?

1. How much inventory was in those buildings and who did it belong to if anyone

2. what is the debt of the company and who are the creditors

3. what is the value of the company if it can be sold

Can anyone tell me what the answer is to number 1., he counted it, where is the detailed report of that count, it's been four months? I'm tired of hearing there was this much accounted for that was dedicated to individuals and I'm not saying how much the rest amounted to, but it wasn't a great deal, did he really say something like that.

He has stated the company isn't worth much of anything as a bullion dealer or mint and yet he hasn't provided anything to back up that claim with any valuations as to what it is actually worth, why? Isn't that suppose to be his  primary function as the trustee?

The owner came forward and stated it was worth millions by detailing the bits and pieces and yet the trustee hasn't done anything to prove he is right or wrong, why?

When they prove Hansen did something illegal, he's going to jail, but what about the trustee, he's doing whatever he wants now and the only thing that can happen to him, if he's caught doing something the judge doesn't like, he gets fired. He's playing god with millions at state here and Medallic Art company is not the answer to everyone's pennies on the dollar, because that's just what it will end up being if he tosses NWTM aside as a heap of scrap. Plus how much will everyone get if he loses his battle for control of Medallic Art company after spending all that money on legal fees. Actually how much will it be worth even if he wins after all those legal fees?

By the way it isn't Medallic Art that is selling all that US Mint products they have had on hand that is proving a profit they are reporting in addition to anything that is Medallic Art business. So it is not a genuine statement to lead people on that the Medallic Art portion of the business is making this profit, but it's also parts of NWTM inventory they are selling off as well.

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