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 Would you be in favor of a plan to become a NWTM shareholder?
 Yes 4 50%
 No 4 50%
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Total votes: 8   Please or register an account to vote.


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JG

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldAG
Those are interesting numbers, but who provided them and for what purpose? Did Hansen provide them for the judgment or has the Trustee provided them since supposedly there were not any real financial records kept for the past four years?

...


The sales figures came from the Trustee. Hansen had previously said that NWTM had never had a year where they had $400M running through NWTM, but that for 2011-2012 combined it was probably close to $400M (so $200M/year or thereabouts, but I believe that included non-bullion).

I believe buybacks are when they exceeded the timeframe required and had to buy back at the higher of the price paid or the spot price at the time of the refund. I'm not sure about the refunds, either, unless it was a different term for buybacks.

The Chapter 11 Trustee Mark Calvert has not specified what is happening to the NWTM brand (e.g. NWTM bars). I assume those are going the way of bullion sales (gone), but cannot be sure. I would assume that he would at least try to sell the brand, but there may be very little value there (who is going to want to and has the ability to start selling new NWTM bars?).

NWTM did publish an inventory, but it is vague ("Silver Eagles, value $X" under "finished products"), and unclear if it included inventory attributed to customers. NWTM also released a creditor list; the total owed is something like $55M (including the $12.5M judgment). He already shut down bullion operations, so at this point coming up with a valuation for that is a moot point (needless to say, since the influx of online dealers since around 2011 or so, profit margins are very small).

Medallic is so intertwined with NWTM that they are essentially one and the same business. From what I can tell, literally everyone who does work that could be considered part of Medallic is on the NWTM payroll. NWTM had 200 employees, now around 150. What are they doing if they aren't working on the bullion side? They are doing what is referred to as "custom minting" -- and presumably quite a bit of it. I think that is what you think of as Medallic's role. And maybe Hansen thinks so to. But if there are 150 employees, all on the NWTM payroll, how can that be Medallic?

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oldAG

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Reply with quote  #17 
I'd like to know what they are calling custom minting, as that is what NWTM has been doing forever for other dealers. Now the trustee may very well be doing the same thing and just not doing anymore NWTM bullion products with that equipment.

You have to wonder how the custom minting side of the business actually went when it came to the transaction. Did they demand delivery at the time of payment, I don't think so, especially those that bought large amounts. What mint is going to take a custom order without cash up front and then have it cancelled and have them setting on a product that no one else would want.

I wonder how many of those customers are on the creditor list? Did Hansen make sure they were all taken care of for any future business he may  want to have in case he opens another mint or has control of Medallic and is capapble of using that equipment.

So I don't believe this custom minting is really Medallic Art only but a combination of what NWTM has been doing for decades for others and what they have incorporated with Medallic since buying them back in 2009 at only $5 million dollars. Which is not a massive business at that figure.

I sure can't believe Medallic Art has grown into a 150 person operation in the past few years.

But I can believe they are still selling NWTM inventory of US Mint coins which is a fairly large collection along with all of the other things they have to sell other than generic Silver bullion to the public.

It would be interesting to see who the customers are for all those custom minting jobs and the types of products they are producing, as in Buffalo rounds or dealer stamped silver rounds. They did have a wide variety of products they produced for a lot of different sources. but you can believe they are still producing Silver rounds, just not NWTM Silver rounds.

As far as what payroll they were on, it didn't matter to Hansen as it was all in the family as far as he was concerned, it was all his, other than what he was suppose to share with his Medallic partner. He didn't have to account to a board of directors or actually show who made what in reality if he didn't care that much as long as he came out ahead. Not putting words or thoughts into his actions, but that's the reality when you are the sole owner of the company. Did he use cost accounting to justify the actual expense for producing all of his different products, who knows. Even if he did, that is only as reliable as the skill level of the cost accountant himself.
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kkelseven

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Reply with quote  #18 
Excuse me for being blunt but I call "Bull Crap"
oldAG. The State's Attorney General did most definitely have an obligation to Audit and Monitor and/or shut it down much like the Bank Examiners ie. Savings and Loan ( $500 billion ring a bill / Resolution Trust Corp.). Or not unlike the State Auditors that routinely go around to Nursing Homes and find dark doings; they then assess fines, etc. and/or shut it down. It is in the conscience of law that if you are nearest to perceiving a serious harm and do nothing then the penalty of negligence is yours. Even more so if you are empowered as the top law enforcement officer of the state wherein the harm is ongoing. In my case I have a state license that requires me to speak up and/or intervene whenever I perceive child and/or elder abuse under penalty of license impingement, $10,000 fine and/or imprisonment. Similarly if I ignore a severe injury accident with no first responders on scene. I've read your postings; you seem to be extremely intelligent, serious writer and you appear to know a great deal about many things. America is lucky to have you. But apparently you don't know everything. Even within the law there are exceptions that may pierce the veil of whatever immunities one may proffer. In this instance JG's recent thread attachment to his newsletter ag.com may well be presenting us with one such potential element of law that does pierce the veil. Bad Motive.
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oldAG

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Reply with quote  #19 
Again the issue of the AG having responsibility, comparing what one AG did when he was provided detailed information as to what was exactly wrong and covered it up can't be compared to what the AG did with NWTM. If people had been providing him with detailed information proving theft of customer stored goods within those vaults and other crimes, then he would have had to take a different course of action, but that wasn't the case at all. It may very well prove to be the facts, but the AG wasn't provided with that kind of information. Actually no one knows what information the AG actually had other than promised delivery dates that were outright lies and no one knows how much of the business records the AG actually looked at when he did peak into their business back in 2007. I still say I'll be surprised if the AG has to defend his actions in court at all and I'll really be surprised if he does and is  found to have done something wrong.

The police are called to the house and a woman answers the door with a black eye, she say's the prick has gone and I really don't want to press charges, just calling 911 made him leave. I don't think he'll ever be back again.

Are they suppose to demand they enter the house and inspect it to actually find out she has killed the prick after calling 911. Are the police negligent for not forcing their way in and searching the home?

Right, it's not the same thing, but where do you draw the line on how much of a reaction do you take for a complaint. Some believe the AG should have turned NWTM upside down and inside out to find out if there was a real problem other than prolonged shipping delays that the company has been accustomed to doing as a normal course of business for many many years. Just fix the problem and stop lying to your customers, get them off my back and we won't have a problem. Pay this fine and legal expenses as a penalty for pissing me off and I'll be monitoring you, so don't let this get out of control again!
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JG

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldAG
I'd like to know what they are calling custom minting...

As far as what payroll they were on, it didn't matter to Hansen as it was all in the family as far as he was concerned, it was all his, other than what he was suppose to share with his Medallic partner. He didn't have to account to a board of directors or actually show who made what in reality if he didn't care that much as long as he came out ahead. Not putting words or thoughts into his actions, but that's the reality when you are the sole owner of the company. Did he use cost accounting to justify the actual expense for producing all of his different products, who knows. Even if he did, that is only as reliable as the skill level of the cost accountant himself.


If you go to http://nwtmint.com/ you'll see what they consider custom minting. I believe it also includes selling previously made custom products. I believe whatever is there (including the "Retail Store") is what they consider custom minting.

Yes, if you own two businesses, you are at liberty of combining them in any which way you desire. But if he combined NWTM and Medallic, and is only a part owner of Medallic, there can be issues. With just 2 employees at Medallic -- and ones that were spending most of their time doing NWTM stuff (Ross and his girlfriend) -- you can't just say that 90% of the profits go to Medallic. Well, you can. But then when you run one of the companies into bankruptcy, that's when SHTF. If the company was insolvent and sending money to Medallic without getting something in return, it would be considered a fraudulent transaction (not necessarily fraud, that's just what it is called), and can be reversed (a "clawback"). And just like the owner of a corporation that has customers write out checks in his name, and pays personal bills with corporate checks, it really looks like Medallic was mixed in with NWTM. In the case of the owner of the corporation, the corporate shield can be broken (e.g. the owner liable for the debts). In the Medallic case, something similar may apply. Or the bankruptcy court may just say "Hey, these assets were all being used by NWTM, Medallic is just a shell company, the assets belong to NWTM." Who knows?

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kkelseven

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldAG
Again the issue of the AG having responsibility, comparing what one AG did when he was provided detailed information as to what was exactly wrong and covered it up can't be compared to what the AG did with NWTM. If people had been providing him with detailed information proving theft of customer stored goods within those vaults and other crimes, then he would have had to take a different course of action, but that wasn't the case at all. It may very well prove to be the facts, but the AG wasn't provided with that kind of information. Actually no one knows what information the AG actually had other than promised delivery dates that were outright lies and no one knows how much of the business records the AG actually looked at when he did peak into their business back in 2007. I still say I'll be surprised if the AG has to defend his actions in court at all and I'll really be surprised if he does and is  found to have done something wrong.

The police are called to the house and a woman answers the door with a black eye, she say's the prick has gone and I really don't want to press charges, just calling 911 made him leave. I don't think he'll ever be back again.

Are they suppose to demand they enter the house and inspect it to actually find out she has killed the prick after calling 911. Are the police negligent for not forcing their way in and searching the home?

Right, it's not the same thing, but where do you draw the line on how much of a reaction do you take for a complaint. Some believe the AG should have turned NWTM upside down and inside out to find out if there was a real problem other than prolonged shipping delays that the company has been accustomed to doing as a normal course of business for many many years. Just fix the problem and stop lying to your customers, get them off my back and we won't have a problem. Pay this fine and legal expenses as a penalty for pissing me off and I'll be monitoring you, so don't let this get out of control again!
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kkelseven

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Reply with quote  #22 
Thank you for the legal advice. Apparently I was about to make a terrible mistake by considering exploring the possibility of initiating a consult with a Class Action lawsuit firm. You probably have a great deal of knowledge regarding the FBI's involvement and findings; and what the AG's liabilities are in terms of the Practice Statutes. You are probably right that such a person who is licensed, entrusted, paid and sworn to investigate the one or two fraud complaints against a former criminal should not be obligated to do anything until there are Hundreds of complaints. Even then there should not be any examination or investigation. After all just because a Hundred people are reported missing in East Overshoe and none anywhere else doesn't mean that anyone has died or that there should be a Missing Persons Bureau. There's an old saying in Politics;
" if it stinks like a bag of cash.... Shove it in my pocket". I'm sure you are absolutely right. There cannot possibly be a Pony underneath Hanson's Giant pile of Horse*#*#. Just the same, if you have no objection, I think I'll watch for an Actual investigation; perhaps ( God willing ) from the FBI.
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oldAG

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Reply with quote  #23 
Excuse me, but who said there were one or two fraud complaints against NWTM back then? I'm not aware of anything other than delayed shipments that were promised to go out the door as soon as the payment cleared. If you think that constitutes fraud then the AG's all over the US have a boatload of prosecuting to take care of.

You and everyone else can do whatever you want, it's not my money your investing, I just don't believe he will be responsible for anything unless you can prove he knew something other than what was suppose to have taken place that he covered up or looked the other way.

And the states do not rummage through nursing homes looking for problems they don't know exist from one end to the other. The state will send in people to routinely check on the operation of a nursing home for general operations but not the financial side of the business. That's done by a different set of people who are basically checking the cost operation against whatever setup they have in their state and each state is different. Then it's either Medicaid or Medicare that will also send in auditors to do a different audit for their purpose which is usually a year behind and then they make adjustments that are backdated. I'm not absolutely sure about which agencies did which financial audits anymore since it has been many years and the differences from one state to the next was mind blowing how they arrived at their numbers. Fraud and abuse is a different matter in the nursing home industry and normally only looked into from complaints such as missing money from the patient accounts or complaints by relatives of patients. But these things don't normally involve shutting down a nursing home, but they do involve terminating a bookkeeper or Administrator most of the time when there is just cause for financial reasons and abuse can involve a number of heads up to the administrator. Normally Nursing homes have serious problems with their billing which involves them screwing themselves, unless they are intentionally trying to cheat a patient. It's pretty hard to get away with cheating the states in most cases, not that some don't try. No I never worked for a nursing home chain myself, but I did a lot of computer work for one and heard all about the audits and potential problems they had or had at other chains. I personally saw crap going on that was abusing the Medicaid system in one state and private pay patients in another. It wasn't my job to spill the beans on the administrators, that was the problem of the nursing home chain themselves. I never witnessed any patient abuse, but one home sure smelled like patient abuse to me and that's normally where a state inspector will step in and force them to "clean" up their act so to speak. I heard about a couple homes being put on notice a couple times over the years, but nothing other than that in the chain I was associated with. Crap hit the fan when a patient wandered off in the middle of the night a couple different times from homes that were suppose to be secured, but no one was injured. For anyone thinking how can they all not be secured, there are different level of care in the industry and some of the low levels are for patients that are basically being housed but are actually free to come and go on their own. They basically feed them, provide a place to live, medication and some other services, but they are not their guardians. If they get out of control they force them out or into a secured nursing facility.

The point to all this is, there just isn't a demand for auditors to step in and turn a business upside down when something comes into question where they will hold a state auditors feet to the fire for anything that might go uncovered that he/she might not have reason to have even been looking for whatever was wrong that they didn't see or find in an audit, especially if it was not in their area of concern as in a financial matter for a nursing audit versus a financial audit. Just as no one would ever expect the financial auditor to find nursing problems while doing a financial audit, unless maybe it pertained to the billing for nursing services, but not actual nursing problems. Plus you'll never find a nursing home auditor going from room to room looking at all the patient charts and checking all dressings to make sure they are properly applied or find one auditing the nursing supplies to see if the amount being billed to patients actually agrees with the total being used over any given period of time.

You can't compare the banking industry to anyone of the private industries as they are completely different and it's not the state that is auditing them but the federal government that has that responsibility for the publics funds as members of the FDIC. If they are not members, then a bank will fall under the watchful eye of the states at that point as the FDIC has no jurisdiction over those banks and can't come in on a weekend and take over like they can other banks.

When the state AG has the responsibility for losses of all assets belonging to every company in it's state, then you can look forward to them turning into absolute dictators and no one doing business in that state any longer. But hey, what does logic have to do with anything, let's make someone pay for someone else's crimes if they can't do it themselves.

A thief breaks into my house tonight and steals all my Silver and Gold and he is out on parole for doing the exact same thing. Who is to blame, the police for not catching him before he broke in or after he fled, isn't that their job. The damn parole board that let that damn thief out on parole when he still had another ten years to serve. Someone was not doing their job and has to pay for that theft, that's all there is to it.

It's not sometimes or once in awhile but everyday from coast to coast, people, companies and corporations are getting screwed one way or another by someone or organization, it's just a fact of life. Theft, bankruptcies, lawsuits, plain old bad luck, you name it, it happens and a lot of people get hurt. We all want to be made whole for all our losses, but it just doesn't happen most of the time for any of us rather we are an individual, company or corporation.

And if you go back and read what I said, I never said he couldn't be held responsible, I said I don't think he can and I'll be watching to see if it comes out any other way.

As far as the FBI is concerned, I really don't think they will be pointing any fingers at the state AG. They will be looking for reasons to prosecute Hansen and others if need be, not the state AG. Well maybe if he/she is on Obama's sh!t list. Politicians are known to screw one another from time to time  when they get the chance for a little payback. Unless the state AG was up to his/her neck in dirt with Hansen, I don't think you'll see anything coming from that direction.

If you can find an attorney willing to take this case on a contingency basis, then I'd say you have a chance. If you have to pay for services rendered, then I'd look into his relationship to Hansen as you might be getting setup for another major fleecing. I'm not a lawyer, but my guess is, the legal fees trying to sue the state AG will be very expensive.
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oldAG

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Reply with quote  #24 
Does this latest mention of a reorganization plan indicate that Medallic Art has been settled one way or the other by now?
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JG

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldAG
Does this latest mention of a reorganization plan indicate that Medallic Art has been settled one way or the other by now?


I believe that the court will be deciding on how to handle Medallic Art. The plan is still confidential (as far as I know), so I do not know if it mentions how Medallic would be handled.

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oldAG

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Reply with quote  #26 
with two sides of the Medallic argument, one saying Medallic has a much greater share of the operation and the other saying it doesn't, it can make a huge difference on how that comes out depending on who takes possession of that operation and all of it's equipment and material. Not to mention the claims against NWTM for money's owed each month.

If Hansen should get his way, I wonder how valuable the remainder of the company would be?

Actually I wonder how valuable it will be even if he doesn't, after the legal expenses are paid.

I can't help but believe it's value is worth far more by selling it off than trying to salvage it over years, this isn't another Bullion Direct with nothing but a name to go with into the future. But then I've never seen any accounting of NWTM assets to make me believe otherwise. Which also makes me suspicious if that hasn't been his intention all along.

I'm sorry if I can't help feel as though we have a crook looking over the shoulders of another crook.

Does it really matter how someone goes about fleecing someone's saving's, even if it's not a criminal offense, it's still wrong.
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Pbr345

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Reply with quote  #27 
Any new news on this Bozo R. Hansen? Keep waiting for some type of standoff near his vault of stolen silver...standing by!
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oldAG

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Reply with quote  #28 
Interesting how they keep losing money each month, but it's only due to the bankruptcy expenses, which is one hell of a fleecing from what I can see and I can't wait to see what those bozo's are able to gouge out from everyone over the battle for Medallic this spring. How much will even be left if they win and what if anything will be left if they lose? It's a win/win for him and his legal team no matter what the outcome...
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JG

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldAG
Interesting how they keep losing money each month, but it's only due to the bankruptcy expenses, which is one hell of a fleecing from what I can see and I can't wait to see what those bozo's are able to gouge out from everyone over the battle for Medallic this spring. How much will even be left if they win and what if anything will be left if they lose? It's a win/win for him and his legal team no matter what the outcome...


From what I have experienced, the bankruptcy game is quite a racket. It's one thing to fleece businesses that account for bad debt (I don't feel bad for the money NWTM owes to AmEx, for example). But fleecing individuals just isn't right.

However, the Medallic issue looks to really be a decision that Ross made. He is fighting to keep every last dollar for himself. NWTM owes his customers tens of millions of dollars, yet he feels that he should keep a company that is mingled tightly with NWTM, that looks like it was bought with NWTM profits, at a time that NWTM was likely already "poaching" from customers.

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oldAG

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Reply with quote  #30 
Maybe Ross should have his mother come in and take over the company for next to nothing!!!

Rather it was with NWTM money or not will be a matter for the court to decide, plus there is the matter of that other partner that is suppose to have been a silent partner in Medallic that was to have coughed up a couple million or so as I recall.

Should Ross do the right thing, ha ha ha, are you kidding, after all that has been revealed so far or at least that we have been told to date.

What about the other guy, the silent partner in Medallic if true. What is his moral obligation for whatever Ross did With NWTM as a whole other than Medallic, if Medallic was a profitable entity by itself?

Should he forfeit his rights to a profitable organization that he invested in that might not have screwed anyone?

None of the other businesses of the Trump empire had to cough up their profits to cover Trumps bankruptcy in Atlantic city, if that could be used as an example.

I'm not trying to stick up for any of these guys, but business is business and bankruptcies are bankruptcies and people get sh!t on almost every time someone files rather it's personal or a huge corporation. Most often life goes on  for the business and or the individual, maybe limping along but it continues.

We can say Ross has a moral obligation to everyone he screwed and should forfeit any rights to Medallic, but who does that in any business or personal bankruptcy that doesn't have to?

Trump didn't forfeit his other businesses and people don't forfeit their homes and cars if their isn't enough cash value or any of the furniture, yet their debtors take it in the rear rather they are a major credit card company or the small corner grocery store he had an open account with.

We'd like to see him hung by the nuts, but he's no different than screwing some poor plumber or other individual doing labor and material that he never got paid for when he went bottoms up.

Only maybe in Rosses case, they can prove he stole something that wasn't legally his to steal, as in the stored bullion. However that seems to be hard to prove and do anything about as seems to be the case with these people and their bogus storage contracts and the paper its worth. Bullion Direct says he ended their contract but no one seems to have been made aware and Ross says he ended the practice of allowing people to store bullion at his location, but never forced the current storage customers to remove their goods. Rather that will count for anything will be determined. I do know that NWTM did not advertise storage of bullion when Bullion direct went belly up. I made a point of looking at all the major dealers to see who was offering it and NWTM was not one of them. I didn't know they had been before that time. I haven't heard any arguments regarding NWTM and the storage contracts like we did with Bullion Direct. I know the story behind NWTM and the storage contracts as reported but nothing from any court proceedings. NWTM and the court seems to be dead air as far as Ross is concerned other than the Medallic fight this spring.

However rather Ross goes to jail, retains his ownership of Medallic or not, should not effect the silent partners share of Medallic if it can be proved he acutally owns a portion of it and Medallic was not included in the bankruptcy and did not file for Bankruptcy as it seems they did not, if the court does rule in his/their favor on all accounts. Damn I wrote that and might have trouble following it. Good luck silent partner, your going to need it.

The way these things are going, Tulving will be out of prison and back in business with "his" mother before anything happens with these other two.
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