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kimk

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Reply with quote  #46 
Harley_52 if I were approaching 70 I would maybe agree with you...just write off on taxes 20%
(who knows when, and if you still working), get tea money, and forget about everything ...move on

Company Could change in future name and some of the screens, but concepts is to keep design and system to run, I do not think it will need a big investment.
Then we can sell operating company with patent on the action(or so) for much more money, or sell our shares.
Like whole bike you can sell for more money then bike frame or wheels.
Who may run restructured corp, let decide it people from Creditors Committee and who proposed this idea. Hope they will have an answer for us.
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harley_52

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Reply with quote  #47 
***"[2] The idea of staying in Chapter 11 to keep the website running until the patent/software is sold/leased, to show how it can "work" in a real life business. This appears to be what Mr. Bensimon would like to do."***

From reading comments in here, I've been left with the impression that the high value for the Nucleo software was much more in the mind of CM than in reality.  That several alternative models exist and/or that a similarly functioning system could be designed/built for FAR less than CM's perceived value for Nucleo.

Do others have that same impression?
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kimk

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Reply with quote  #48 
Chapter 7 will bring fast funds but you won't be able to see them without 'magnified glass'
because of the rush sale.

I agree another situation we should go, recover and identify all hidden and stolen assets, they should be somewhere, also go after all salaries received by CM and others in all 5 companies he was manager or owner(funded by BD and by using our money).
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au

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Reply with quote  #49 
And for IRA owners, Equity Trust (big pockets, go google their OH hangout with $12BB in asset mgmnt).  There's a reason they now have an attorney for this case (I've heard some inside scoop on this).  They charged us maintenance fees on fraudulent IRA accounts and had every opportunity to validate them (but failed to do so).  -au
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nobody

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Reply with quote  #50 
Given the company was running on a "flawed business model" since 1999, and nobody's really proposed one here that seems viable - I'm with you in spirit, but my brain is having trouble finding such a resolution.


The only way the model really works is with commoditized 'parts', people interesting in "carrying" inventory and trust in the central counter-party - outside of all three of those needs, ebay generally satisfies - and does to millions of transactions per year.

I do know Mr. Bensimon and Mr. Martinec aren't cheap - and what they've shown me so far doesn't give rise to me believing they're en route to  constructing a more credible restructuring plan than any we've bandied about.

I want creditors to be made whole - but in 6 weeks, it'll be 100k to have paid either of these gentleman full time - and there's only so much cash left with which to restructure the rest, outside of lenders wishing to take on even more debt.

I don't want to say chap 7 or bust, but so far, I'm having a hard time finding any other market this stuff would be viable for, for any more than a couple of engineers to write it and a lawyer to defend it.

My ~32$ after deducting for loss.
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"In God We Trust"

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Reply with quote  #51 
If BD is restructured and revived into a business again, I'll be willing to move to Austin TX and work for BD for $100,000 a year. That will be my payback in 1 year! We can all take turns.

Seriously folks, getting 2% of $100,000 is only $2,000. I'm willing to risk that amount in hopes of getting more back in 10 to 20 years, if BD can be run profitably.

If BD is started up again there should be no bonuses paid until creditors (those that got their metal and money stolen) are made whole. 


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Khachir7

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Reply with quote  #52 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobody
Given the company was running on a "flawed business model" since 1999, and nobody's really proposed one here that seems viable - I'm with you in spirit, but my brain is having trouble finding such a resolution.




The only way the model really works is with commoditized 'parts', people interesting in "carrying" inventory and trust in the central counter-party - outside of all three of those needs, ebay generally satisfies - and does to millions of transactions per year.



I do know Mr. Bensimon and Mr. Martinec aren't cheap - and what they've shown me so far doesn't give rise to me believing they're en route to  constructing a more credible restructuring plan than any we've bandied about.

I want creditors to be made whole - but in 6 weeks, it'll be 100k to have paid either of these gentleman full time - and there's only so much cash left with which to restructure the rest, outside of lenders wishing to take on even more debt.

I don't want to say chap 7 or bust, but so far, I'm having a hard time finding any other market this stuff would be viable for, for any more than a couple of engineers to write it and a lawyer to defend it.

My ~32$ after deducting for loss.


Given that we know that CM cannot be trusted, I actually don't believe that the company was losing money. I just don't believe anything he says anymore. Of course, he was motivated to "lose" money so that he pays nothing in taxes. Therefore, the books need to be examined carefully before we can opine on this.

In any case, we have nothing to lose if we become shareholders, no? We lost almost everything already.
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JG

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Reply with quote  #53 
Quote:
Originally Posted by harley_52
For the record....I do agree with @jkline that before we make the decision we should be sure we've looked under every rock and behind every door to be sure we've identified ALL the assets.  ALL THE ASSETS.  I wouldn't want anything hidden just so we could blaze through the bk process and leave a pile for CM, or other co-conspirators.


That will be done one way or another. Bullion Direct is missing $30M in customer metal/money, and has not accounted for it. That's not something that can be swept under the rug.

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bull123

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Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #54 
I hate to say it, but we are all going to end up with nothing

the software is worth ZERO

the gold stored will be worth ZERO by the time the lawyers are done

Where did this money all go?

What in the hell is really going on here?

Why was this allowed to happen?

Anyone who hires a lawyer is out of their minds as they will just be chasing feathers.

It seems to be ... all gone =(
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nobody

Senior Member
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Posts: 360
Reply with quote  #55 
I'm not going to argue anyone  (too much)  one way or the other, I'm a small noisy cog in this very big pile of problems - so it's all said as opinion, and if you think you've got a better shot here, by all means.

One potential way to evaluate "is this even a good idea" is to figure out a rate of return you might get with your two cents, and set that as your potential risk over 20 years.

At 1.5% (a long term CD) over 20 years, you'd expect a 34% return.

At say, 7% (general market guesstimate) over 20 years, a 286% return.

Let's go with 20% at the high end (invested in the right lucky startup - say, BD [tongue]) over 20 years - 3700%.

In my mind, I think I can pick a basket of index funds and get the 7% over 20 years, but getting 20% over 20 years is pretty much impossible (and, might I add, still won't make us whole!).

But I'll largely defer to the creditors in this matter, so let's assume they make a business of it and run it.

APMEX, right now, will buy a generic gold bar from me for 1123.30 and sell me one for 1159.29 - as volatility is high this week, let's call this spread a reasonable high-end for generic (bullion) product.  That 36$ spread is about 3%, and includes free delivery to home or storage (storage is a separate fee), and assumes I transact in single bars (spreads narrow at volume, probably on both sides).

If it was non-viable at 2%, will it be viable at 3%?

Ok, so let's get it up and running and show it to investors - will they see anything that changes their valuation more than the patent? Is anyone's experience here with BD's software interface really _that_ good that they'd compare it to a newly developed application with similar functionality and go "wow"?

The exchange was written in 2000, and has probably had at peak, about 6-10 man-years of time put in since then (guesstimate) - it's 5 years dated from what we'd make today.

Which brings us to the patent itself - and I keep bringing up Alice - but while Alice is important, even more important are the patents ruled invalid directly by Alice, the one I find funniest is 7725375B2 - does that not sound really similar to anyone else?

But, a patent is worth whatever it costs a lawyer to challenge it (and whatever risk assessment you put into losing) - so, using Mr. Martinec's rate and a guess of 20 hours to represent the claim, maybe 8k - and that's to the buyer, generally the "price" will be somewhere between that and the actual sale price (otherwise, why not just spend the 8k on a lawyer to challenge straight up).

I, the crafty evil businessman, build my challenging software and infringing product in an LLC with no assets - perhaps calling it "Come-at-me Corp" - and you sue me, and you win.  Guess what you just won - an LLC with no assets.

But seriously - do what you want, but before we assume it's got value that is worth paying someone 16k/week to sell, consider if that 16k would be put to better use in a wishing well.

-n 
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Jtfm1954

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Posts: 22
Reply with quote  #56 
I completely understand your feelings bull123,   I feel similarly.   I made contact with the district attorneys office early on and was pleased to understand that they and the FBI were investigating the situation.   As time has gone on I also doubt any real restitution is forthcoming.  BUT I do believe  Blackbeard Charley will either have to flee this country or face the music.   I had 28K in holdings thru my IRA.   There is some talk that the IRA custodian ( Equity Institutional)  my be liable for lack of due diligence.  But I will hold off on being encouraged until more data is in.  IF anyone knows  more I am all ears.  No profit since  1999.  WHAT A SCAM.  

On another note we may be able to deduct our losses as I noted earlier.   My accountant thought I would be able to deduct up to 80% of my losses this year.  Even if the case is still pending.  The remaining 20% once the case is over.  IF by some fluke we received restitution we would need to file an amended return.  This is because our losses were thru fraud as opposed to routine business loss.  This is tentative info.   The accountant is checking on the details.
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jkline

Member
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Posts: 83
Reply with quote  #57 
Bull, pessimism is fine, but defeatism isn't.

I hope we can plague CM for a very long time. Make him a felon. Make him unemployable. Make his wife divorce him with all the ensuing joys for a man in family court. Make Google slow down every time his name is searched. Etc.
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JG

Administrator
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Posts: 960
Reply with quote  #58 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bull123
Why was this allowed to happen?


It happened because of trust, and complacency (the complacency piece falls on *all* retail bullion customers -- not just those of Bullion Direct).

Ironically, Bullion Direct built up trust as it was squandering customers' metal. It was around for 15 years, always able to send out orders. Little did people know that the money and metal shown on their account didn't exist.

After The Tulving Company shut down owing customers $17M I tried setting up a website (this one, actually -- http://www.BullionDealerData.com) to help prevent the problem from occurring again. But nobody cared, nobody came to the site, nobody spread the word about it. It's like alarm systems -- they are hard to sell to people that have not experienced a theft (but very easy to sell to everyone else).

Once things start to slow down with Bullion Direct, I may see about pushing hard to try to get a system in place to more quickly detect problems like this. Bullion Direct was a bit trickier because of the whole storage piece.

I think the mantra will be: [1] Do not do business with retailers that also stored your metal (sorry, guys!), and [2] Before EVERY order check with a third-party to see how quickly orders are getting sent out from the company you want to order from (or use a credit card and pay 3% or so extra and get protection that way).

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tboll

Senior Member
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Posts: 292
Reply with quote  #59 
My mantra as well JG.  And without the storage, I wouldn't have been nearly as active using Nucleo.  But with the lesson learned, I won't store, sell, and buy at the same site.  So I probably won't do any selling anymore and will just buy and hold (myself).  I'm not convinced that a resurrected BD will have the volume of the former Failed BD.
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bull123

Senior Member
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Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #60 
You guys who are saying you want to take over Bullion Direct, or be part of a new Bullion Direct as partners ... you don't understand

The gold biz is vicious

the margins are near zero and there is volitility in pricing

which means ... you can go upside down in an order as easily as you can be profitable

the whole thing is a mess, which is why so many dealers are going out of business

CM just seems to be the very worst of a very bad bunch ...  Maybe he was the way he was, because if he ran it honestly, it would have just lost money

vs. his $300K salary and trips to Dubai etc ...

I'm sorry we all were hurt so badly, but life goes on ...
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