[For news on NWT Mint, see http://about.ag/NWTMint.htm]
[For research on bullion dealers, see http://BullionDealerData.com]




Forum
Register Calendar Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 1 of 2      1   2   Next
Cbrad01

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 29
Reply with quote  #1 
Ignore past experiences....
Is there any business case or scenario where the fee and cost structure of the new site makes sense or works?
I can seem to find any situation where buying or selling on the site works.
0
JG

Administrator
Registered:
Posts: 960
Reply with quote  #2 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cbrad01
Ignore past experiences.... Is there any business case or scenario where the fee and cost structure of the new site makes sense or works? I can seem to find any situation where buying or selling on the site works.


[spoiler alert: the numbers don't seem to work at all for smaller orders, but could for Tulving size lots ($10Kish).]

It seems like the numbers are final.

With the old Nucleo, it was a 1% commission, $20+ delivery.

Now, it is a 2%-4% commission, $75+ to deposit the metal, $50+ to deliver the metal, and a $.01 (silver) or $.45/oz (other metals) monthly storage fee.

So let's say I have a 1oz gold eagle to sell, and you buy it. APMEX buys at $12.80 above spot, sells at $60 above spot. Let's say spot is $1,200. They sell at $1,260, buy at $1,212.80. Let's say you buy at $1,210.00. You then pay $50 shipping, you pay $1,260 (same as APMEX). I then get $1,210.00 but pay a 2% commission ($24.20) and the $75 to deliver the product to them. So I get $1,110.80. You don't save any money, I lose $100. No deal.

Let's try a Tulving size lot of 10 1oz gold eagles. You buy at $1,255 each, pay $50 shipping, for a total of $12,600 (same as APMEX). I get $12,550, pay $251 commission and $75 to deliver the product to them. That gets me $12,224, or $1,222.40 per coin, or $9.60 each MORE than what APMEX pays. That's a slight win for me. But in reality, if we both ran the numbers, we would split that, so we would each save $4.80/coin over APMEX.

ASEs are $2.79 over spot at APMEX ($2.99 for 20-99), they buy back at $.89 over spot. Let's say spot is $17.00. Buying a tube of 20 isn't worth calculating ($399.80 at APMEX, the $8.99 commission, $125 delivery both ways, ends up at $13.29 each the seller would get if the buyer paid APMEX prices).

A monster box ("Tulving size lot") works out like this. The buyer pays $9,845 (APMEX sell price of 19.79 each minus the $50 BU shipping cost). The seller gets the $9,845 minus 2.25% commission ($221.51) minus $75 shipping, for $9,548.49, or $19.09 each. APMEX would pay $8,945, saving $603.49. If equally split between buyer and seller, that's $301.75 each would save over dealing with APMEX. That's assuming the $50/$75 shipping fees are the same for 500oz of silver as they are smaller orders (highly unlikely). If there aren't higher shipping fees, that looks pretty good, if you're doing big volumes. Nucleo, from what I could tell, was typically much smaller deals than that.

To me, it looks like things weren't completely thought through. Why even both having a category for ASE tubes if the numbers for the buyers/seller don't even come close to working out?
0
bull123

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #3 
All this math is fine, but what you forget, it that NWT Mint had them ALL beat in math and then went belly up leaving millions allegedly vanished ...

the odd thing is ... the better the deal (for the client) ... the risk element moves higher

Santa Monica based Goldline has been charging huge margins for over 50 years, but at least they fulfill orders

For those looking to really be tight on the margins, buying paper Gold and Silver is so much simpler

GLD or SLV
0
Cbrad01

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 29
Reply with quote  #4 
I basically am a buyer, what I lost was purchased items they were storing, thankfully not a lot.
When I look at sites it comes down to how much over spot it's being sold for.
For silver the new site doesn't seem like it would be good for anyone to sale, gold maybe and only for larger transactions.
For the small savers who want gold / silver as part of their assets the sites numbers don't work.

Also the numbers are a bit hard to follow, it seems a clear x percent of transaction would be clearer. If I sale on eBay I can quickly know their cut of the transaction and shipping etc.
It does seem like they have priced out all but the larger transactions.
0
JG

Administrator
Registered:
Posts: 960
Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cbrad01
For silver the new site doesn't seem like it would be good for anyone to sale, gold maybe and only for larger transactions. For the small savers who want gold / silver as part of their assets the sites numbers don't work.


According to my calculations, the break-even for ASEs is a bit over $1,000 to save money over selling to APMEX (selling 56 of them gives the buyer and seller an extra $.13). The break-even for AGEs is about $3,500 (selling 3 of them gives the buyer and seller an extra $3.52). That assumes the $50+ and $75+ for shipping/delivery is $50 and $75.

Next, we need to account for risk: APMEX is the "gold standard" of bullion dealers, with a long history, good sales volume, and good management structure. So you'll need an incentive to not buy from APMEX. Let's say that the buyer and seller each need to save $100 over APMEX buy/sell prices. At that point, you're talking $3,400 or so for ASEs (169 of them), or $10K for AGEs (8 of them). If shipping/delivery fees are higher, those numbers go up as well.

My numbers do not account for storage fees, as those seem fairly minimal compared to the other costs.

So I think a lot hinges on whether those numbers are firm, whether the shipping fees could go higher, and whether they choose to operate as they have, or be more transparent. More transparency means less risk, which means less savings needed to lure someone over from APMEX (or their other favorite bullion dealer).

0
bull123

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #6 
the only problem ... (with thinking a company is beyond reproach)

NWT Mint was the Gold Standard of Bullion dealers before everyone found out what was really going on

same with Tulving to an extent ...

Hannes shipped BILLIONS of dollars in orders with never a problem (for something like 15 years)

Everyone's a Saint until you find out what's really going on behind the curtain
0
JG

Administrator
Registered:
Posts: 960
Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bull123

NWT Mint was the Gold Standard of Bullion dealers before everyone found out what was really going on

same with Tulving to an extent ...

Hannes shipped BILLIONS of dollars in orders with never a problem (for something like 15 years)

Everyone's a Saint until you find out what's really going on behind the curtain


NWT Mint didn't even come close to being the gold standard of bullion dealers (well, perhaps a decade or more ago). The multi-month delivery time made them a risk (one that many were willing to take, and many were completely unaware of before ordering).

Tulving was close to the gold standard of bullion dealers, until about a year and a half before he shut down. At that point, he had gone from shipping within 24-48 hours to several weeks or more.

Yes, APMEX could shut down tomorrow and owe quite a bit of money. But it is very unlikely.

0
bull123

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #8 
Have you ever wondered why not ONE of these "mega" Gold dealers ever goes public like companies do in virtually every other industry?

That's where the real money could be made ... Jeff Bezos of Amazon became the second richest man on earth doing it that way.  He would never have considered staying a private company.

Not one National Gold Dealer has ever done it though ...

Could it be that the scrutiny to their true financial condition could be more than they could handle?

A lot of these guys do stored gold ... so they would have to verify for shareholders that the stuff was really sitting in their vaults somewhere.

just sayin ...
0
oldAG

Member
Registered:
Posts: 59
Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JG


According to my calculations, the break-even for ASEs is a bit over $1,000 to save money over selling to APMEX (selling 56 of them gives the buyer and seller an extra $.13). The break-even for AGEs is about $3,500 (selling 3 of them gives the buyer and seller an extra $3.52). That assumes the $50+ and $75+ for shipping/delivery is $50 and $75.

Next, we need to account for risk: APMEX is the "gold standard" of bullion dealers, with a long history, good sales volume, and good management structure. So you'll need an incentive to not buy from APMEX. Let's say that the buyer and seller each need to save $100 over APMEX buy/sell prices. At that point, you're talking $3,400 or so for ASEs (169 of them), or $10K for AGEs (8 of them). If shipping/delivery fees are higher, those numbers go up as well.

My numbers do not account for storage fees, as those seem fairly minimal compared to the other costs.

So I think a lot hinges on whether those numbers are firm, whether the shipping fees could go higher, and whether they choose to operate as they have, or be more transparent. More transparency means less risk, which means less savings needed to lure someone over from APMEX (or their other favorite bullion dealer).




Or you can buy your ASE's from SD Bullion for any quantity at only $2.29 over spot and it will take a ton of sales at Universal to try and match those premiums. Plus they have been dealing with these extremely low premiums on ASE's for the second year in row now that I've been watching them and they do not seem to be having any complaints with slow or delinquent shipments.  

As far as I've been able to tell, they are the new online bullion leader for low cost Silver products. Could also be for Gold as well but I never follow Gold premiums for Silver web site members. It appeared that Provident was going to take over that spot for awhile in the last couple years and then seems to have backed away from that front runner position. Maybe the competition from SD Bullion was not worth the hassle, I don't know. I just know it takes a lot of wheeling and dealing to become the lowest priced leader for online dealers, that and some history of success behind you to gain the publics trust.

I haven't seen anything to date that has shown a willingness from the ownership of Bullion Universe to attract potential buyers. That could be their strategy as part of their long term goals. Keep the progress very slow and easy and they don't have to put much effort into a project that is never going to be worth the effort to them while under this creditors arrangement. Once that is over with, they can do whatever they want and work as hard as they want and the fruits of their labor will be theirs to keep.

I know that may sound a little cynical to you Bull, since you are backing them 100%, but their actions to date are not those of a dealer seeker to attract any potential new customers and they are on a time line for shared profits.

I use to think dealers that wouldn't provide any pricing information over the internet were bad unless you called in person, not hard to figure out why, but this operation and the demands they are making up front for anyone to even see what "might" be behind door number 1, well that's from the Nancy Pelosi Play book.

They may be called Universal, but I assure you they are not acting like it and they will not be attracting a lot of new customers unless word spreads that it's a real great deal to buy and sell on the site. Even with your insistence that everything is just fine, you won't even provide any detailed information from their pages that shows of one singe opportunity that would attract anyone to them. But that's up to you, if you what to actually try and steer potential buyers in their direction.
0
JG

Administrator
Registered:
Posts: 960
Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldAG

Or you can buy your ASE's from SD Bullion for any quantity at only $2.29 over spot and it will take a ton of sales at Universal to try and match those premiums.


FWIW, SD Bullion is run by the same people that run silverdoctors.com, which hypes anything bullion with little care as to whether it is true or not. And the doctors are actually pharmacists (the medical school they went to was a pharmacist school). That said, I haven't heard of slow deliveries, which is good.

0
bull123

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #11 
All I know is that the Bullion Universe site is off the charts amazing to just look at

that has to count for something ...

plus dealing with the mom as a bonus
0
oldAG

Member
Registered:
Posts: 59
Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JG


FWIW, SD Bullion is run by the same people that run silverdoctors.com, which hypes anything bullion with little care as to whether it is true or not. And the doctors are actually pharmacists (the medical school they went to was a pharmacist school). That said, I haven't heard of slow deliveries, which is good.




I have to agree with the bull crap hyping of Silver as the best thing since Swiss cheese. I don't know if anyone does it more than Andrew Hoffman, but his premiums suck and those at SB Bullion do not.

My concerns are who can we trust, who has the best deals and who do we need to stay away from.
0
oldAG

Member
Registered:
Posts: 59
Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bull123
All I know is that the Bullion Universe site is off the charts amazing to just look at

that has to count for something ...

plus dealing with the mom as a bonus



A Lamborghini is great to look at also, but it's a lousy buy if your looking for a generic automobile.

What would count for something is it they were not hiding everything behind locked doors that you have to give up you financial information to actually take a peek.

And I still want to know why in the world they have the guts to actually put a box for your social security number when applying for entry into that club? It doesn't demand it, but it's there just like all the other boxes to fill in and the question is. WHY and for what purpose?????
0
bull123

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #14 
they ask for your social security number so they can know who the heck you are ...

make sure you are legit ...

no criminal background etc ... it might be for some money laundering check ...

I think it's solid that they are taking a more professional approach this time around

Kudos to the Mom ...
0
mindmelter

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 29
Reply with quote  #15 
I emailed them a few days ago about explaining the $75+ product deposit fee and $50+ product withdraw fee in more detail and they have not responded yet. Who's going to do business with them if they do not respond to simple questions? Imagine trying to contact them if there's a real issue.

0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.