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nobody

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Reply with quote  #31 
If they got the weight and size (LxWxH), they're either using the right metal, or built a near perfect fake.

If it's still gold (or silver) colored, passes the X-ray test, passes conductivity and magnetism tests -- they'll have done some incredible science/metallurgy that's likely worth more than tricking a few americans out of their FRN's
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tboll

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Reply with quote  #32 
>It is certainly something to worry about -- but if you know what to look for (and trust that there are people who would catch advanced counterfeits made of a custom-made alloy), you won't get stuck with the fakes.

Right... just like we won't get stuck picking a vendor who steals money and runs a bogus gold storage business.  Perhaps PM stacking is not for everyone, especially not for people who are too trusting and don't realize the number of ways to get conned in the process.
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tboll

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Reply with quote  #33 


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JG

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bull123
but what if the Chinese get the weight right and the height right?

their crafty ...  then what?


They are lazy. You'll see coins or bars with an obvious defect ("1915" for an ASE for example), and they don't bother to correct it. They already make brass and copper tokens, so it is easy to just make ones that look like silver or gold. But they don't want to go to the effort of experimenting to try to find just the right combination (only to find out that it bends easily or has some other obvious giveaway).

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nobody

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Reply with quote  #35 
It's worth noting in that video that it was still 20% real (if I understood correctly) -- which is to say, you've still got more than BD reserved.

That made me feel bad just thinking it.

Edit: 30% => 20%, I'd remembered wrong.
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bull123

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Reply with quote  #36 
this is borderline more trouble than it is worth ...

just sayin[smile]
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JG

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Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bull123
this is borderline more trouble than it is worth ...


The larger bars are easier to tamper with than smaller bars. You've got more space to drill holes, and more margin for error. Back in the 1980s, there were some 100oz Engelhard bars filled with lead in 2 different ways, but no such reports of 1oz (or smaller) bars or coins.

If you're going to be purchasing a 10oz gold bar, you're going to want to inspect it closely. There is no mention in the video, for example, of the weight of the bar. And remember, too, that there haven't been many (if any) reports of similar tampered bars since then -- you just cannot move many tampered 10oz gold bars without getting caught. Try selling 10 of them at once, that's over $100K, they are going to look closely at them. Try selling to a store, and then coming back with another one, and you risk getting arrested.

The Chinese are able to flood the market because the Chinese and U.S. governments just don't seem to care, and they are advertised as knockoffs. It's the people buying them and intentionally reselling them that cause the problem. But for some people, it's worth the time and effort to sell a couple at a time, and not worth the dealers' time to get the police involved over $100.

Knowledge is the key here.

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tboll

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Reply with quote  #38 
Density of Gold is 19.3g/cm^3
Density of Tungsten is 19.25g/cm^3
(tungsten is only 0.2% lighter)

Price of Gold = $36.50/g
Price of Tungsten = $ 0.03/g

Not rocket science here.  (The gold plating is the only thing of value.  The bigger bars would be more appealing to counterfeit because the weight of gold plating to the weight of the bar is much less significant.)



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gyro

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Posts: 27
Reply with quote  #39 
^ Good point.  That's why coins are at least safer than bars - because it's harder to convincingly counterfeit an intricately-stamped, thin coin than just a simple bar.  Not impossible, but the form of the coin itself is an added safety measure.
[bodo_20140627_2]
That said, (assuming this alleged ad was real) these coins look like some pretty good fakes:
[Buffalo-Gold-Fake-2013]
But, wouldn't these fakes cost more to make than they are selling them for???  Especially if they were actually gold-plated?  Seriously, what is the point of making and selling a fake gold coin for 9 cents?

I thought the point of counterfeiting was to pass it off for its phony bullion value?  So, make a 1 oz gold fake for $10 and then sell it for $1200?
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bull123

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Reply with quote  #40 
If you search around on Alibaba you will find Gold Eagles selling for $300 each  ... they have real Gold on the outside and the middle has the tungsten steel

so the real Gold part is where the higher price comes from ...

then they have the cheap ones (like the one above), that are not designed to fool anyone ...

Next Question:

How is weighing the coin or bar going to help you when Tungsten steel is just about the same weight as the Gold itself (post above lists exacts measurements).

like i said in an earlier post ... really more trouble than it is worth ...

and with folks like Tulving and CM running around ... WAY more trouble than it is worth
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Lars

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Reply with quote  #41 

Not trying to bust any balls here, just trying to shed light on the subject.  While the methods JG mentioned may not sound “high-tech,” they ARE scientific.  At a given temperature, each element has distinct physical properties, among them density.  This is where the volume and weight (or mass) measurements come in.  For silver, few metals are close to its density of 10.49 grams/cubic centimeter (g/cm3 ).  There’s actinium at 10.07 g/cm3, but radioactive, molybdenum at 10.18, and lead at 11.34.  No alloys, with the exception of stuff called anti-friction metals (alloys often used in ball bearings), come close.  And silver does NOT alloy with lead (meaning mixing them won’t produce something similar to brass, Krugerrands, or GAEs) 

For gold, at 19.32 g/cm3, platinum at 21.4 g/cm3 (which I recall reading was used in early counterfeit gold coins), and tungsten, 19.6 g/cm3, are viable options.  Depleted uranium at 18.9 g/cm3 is a non-player because it’s still radioactive.  And obviously, only a moron would try to pass off a platinum coin or bar as gold, leaving tungsten our most obvious choice.  Another difference between gold and tungsten that MAY be a non-destructive option is the thermal expansion coefficient – gold will expand significantly more than tungsten.  However, I don’t know if that difference would be detectable without sophisticated equipment, especially for small samples.

Therefore, as JG says, if the dimensions of the coin are correct, the weight or mass of the coin will be off.  More likely, the weight will be correct, leaving the dimensions (volume) off.  This latter condition is more difficult to detect.  I have heard of products similar to what I’d call molds for common bullion coins – if the coin fits exactly into the mold, and also has the correct weight, it’s likely real.  However, this option isn’t a player when generic bullion coins or bars are involved.  For coins and bars, water displacement can be used to determine volume, but as I’ve discovered in my science classes, this method is not very accurate using standard issue school lab equipment.  I imagine more sophisticated water displacement measuring devices are available, but likely at a very hefty premium.

This is where the “ping” test comes in for silver.  I remember reading about the “drill and fill” 100 oz. silver bars shortly after I bought a bunch of 100 oz. bars.  I came across a test (JG may even have it in one of his forums), where you balance the bar on a dowel (a plastic tube for dimes or 1/10 oz. GAEs or Krugs also works), and give the bar a sharp tap with a wooden mallet (like they use for those toy xylophones.)  Allegedly, a drill and fill bar or something not pure silver will make a metallic “thunk” sound.  Silver, on the other hand, will produce a sharp, crisp “ping” that resonates for several seconds – I’ve had them go for the better part of a minute.

I remember reading about counterfeit 400 oz. gold-plated tungsten bars being accepted by a COMEX dealer in the U.S. awhile back, with the source alleged to be China.  However, a couple of searches produces no results for any mainstream media sources.  Maybe someone else remembers.

One final note – just because an element is a metal doesn’t mean it can be used for counterfeiting coins.  Tungsten is only malleable in a very pure form, for example.  In short, someone has to go through a lot of time and trouble to cost-effectively mass produce counterfeit coins that will fool most experts.  Aside from vigilance, ,the trick is finding an “expert” you can trust (a lesson we’ve all learned courtesy of Charles McAllister.)

Here’s a link to a Popular Science article by Theo Gray, a source I’d consider credible. 

http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2008-03/how-make-convincing-fake-gold-bars

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bull123

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Reply with quote  #42 
After reading this thread, I am sure we'll all be running out wanting to buy us some bullion

maybe we can even find another Charles McAllister to store it for us

shrug=)
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johnnyeagleeye

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Posts: 23
Reply with quote  #43 
JG-
     Help! The forum is bogging down. When will you have the transcript of the Creditor's Meeting posted? We are eager for some news. Thanks for all you do.
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jkline

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Posts: 83
Reply with quote  #44 
Sadly, I loaned my metal detector, but it would be interesting to take whatever gold you know is gold, check off the frequencies on the detector that sound off, and check against other coins.

I doubt, but can't verify right now, that tungsten would detect the same at AU. 

Maybe somebody else with a detector could verify.
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bull123

Senior Member
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Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #45 
Yes, let's get back to more interesting news

like how we are all so screwed for stumbling on the website http://www.bulliondirect.com
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