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bull123

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Reply with quote  #61 
There are two companies that will check your metals:

NGC and PCGS ... the "dreaded collector" case folks

They have the best equipment in the world

and they even insure each coin they encase

but over the past 5 years, folks have shied away from them, just wanting the bare metal, as a way to stay close to spot price and save a few bucks ...

penny wise and pound foolish some might say ...

shrug=)
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Khachir7

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Posts: 72
Reply with quote  #62 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bull123
There are two companies that will check your metals:

NGC and PCGS ... the "dreaded collector" case folks

They have the best equipment in the world

and they even insure each coin they encase

but over the past 5 years, folks have shied away from them, just wanting the bare metal, as a way to stay close to spot price and save a few bucks ...

penny wise and pound foolish some might say ...

shrug=)


Thanks, bull. I researched both companies just now - they require one send his metals in... The problem is that I don't trust any of these people to send me back the real thing. I am thinking of some place where you can take your PM and have them pass it through an equipment in front of you. Why is no one doing it?? Anyone wants to partner with me to open a business like that?
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bull123

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Reply with quote  #63 
because unless it is put in a fool proof case ... (NGC and PCGS both do this)

the moment you walk out the door ... the certification means nothing
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Khachir7

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Reply with quote  #64 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bull123
because unless it is put in a fool proof case ... (NGC and PCGS both do this)

the moment you walk out the door ... the certification means nothing


No certification. Just a service of checking the composition using a sophisticated equipment. For the owner to verify what they have.
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JG

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Reply with quote  #65 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobody
Towards the end, there was a disclaimer on the site saying the depository wasn't responsible for verifying metal (true to IDS' terms) - and things were getting shipped in and out directly from IDS at the end.


Funny, I was just looking at the IDS storage agreement. It says "[limitation to liabilities regarding authentication, and quality control] IDS will not be responsible for the authenticity, provide [sic] however, that IDS staff will use its best efforts to review all incoming products for known specifications (i.e. weight verification, size, appearance )."

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Khachir7

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Reply with quote  #66 
JG, I just don't understand what I am missing here. Why won't anyone provide this service? I am assuming that there is an equipment out there that can provide accurate content specs, no?
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bull123

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Reply with quote  #67 
I will tell you why ...

The minute you walk out the door with your "certification" it will need to be certified again

U could pull the switcharoo in the backseat of your car in the parking lot of the certification center

I was just watching CNBC and they had an analyst on who was saying 87% of the world counterfeit market originates in China

and that is for ALL products ... not just bullion

The Chinese are master duplicators ... to think they won't get the weight and height and whatever right, is to underestimate their cunning ... their economy is based on stealing the work of others.

This all will have HUGE ramifications for the loose bullion markets

flame suit on=)

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JG

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Reply with quote  #68 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khachir7
JG, I just don't understand what I am missing here. Why won't anyone provide this service? I am assuming that there is an equipment out there that can provide accurate content specs, no?


I think there would not be a lot of demand for it. The people who really need the service (such as those buying off of Craigslist who don't know about fake metals) aren't going to know (or care) that they need it.

Although it would provide peace of mind to some people, what happens if the metal is fake? What if it is metal you bought months or years ago? How can you prove they sold it to you (unless you were *very* lucky and got an invoice where your copy and theirs shows the bar number(s))?

And then if the bar is legitimate, there is no value provided to the eventual buyer when you sell it.

And then another issue -- what if they miss a fake bar for some reason? I run the business, and I'm out one day, and my assistant is there, the battery in the ultrasonic thickness gauge dies, and he thinks the bar looks good -- but it is not. How can you prove that it was counterfeit when you brought it to me? How can you prove that it is not a different bar (unless it has a serial number which is recorded)? What prevents you from altering the bar after I test it, and bringing back the altered bar?

I think those are some of the issues that might come up if someone was thinking of offering such a service.

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Khachir7

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Posts: 72
Reply with quote  #69 
I am saying to do it while the person is there - he comes with it, stays with it the whole time and leaves with it. No certificates. True, there is no value to the future buyer, but it is a peace of mind for the owner, who hopes to be able to rely on it in hard times.

The Qs you are asking, don't they also apply to NGC and PCGS? They, on the other hand, provide a certificate, which must be even more expensive - but it is useless for me because I ultimately don't trust any of these companies because I have to ship them the PM and they are the only ones who ultimately get to know what's inside.
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nobody

Senior Member
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Posts: 360
Reply with quote  #70 
So just spitballing - your biggest issue is going to be scale.  You might use one if it was down the street, but we might assume you and I are very far apart if we've been using BD to trade historically.

But, lets say you created a network that provided walk in drop off of PM's for full chain-of-custody verification -> shipping (and some insurance / warranty of same) - that might be worth something to me and other buyers (or sellers).

I (as a buyer) could then only deal with vendors that come via a "warranted" shipper, or you as a seller could offer such an arrangement (maybe for an added fee).

But the market of buyers would be so thin (what %age of americans buy actual PM's outside of jewelry?) - that I'm not sure you'd get enough volume to do it yourself, and instead would almost want to franchise out such an arrangement (and it still wouldn't solve "what about after you received it" -- it covers the buyer at buy time more than the buyer at his next sale time)

It's an interesting problem to think about.
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jkline

Member
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Posts: 83
Reply with quote  #71 
Basically, where are you most likely to get ripped off:  real gold or gold ETF's?  Just pay your money and take your chances.

If you knew me, you would lock up yer daughters when I say that I will probably go ETF's whenever I decide to buy again. 

Let's not start a debate about this-- I'm perfectly aware of what is going on.
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