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drusty

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Reply with quote  #1 
I was wondering how I verify my proof of claim.  I want to make sure all of the information is correct.  I remember seeing a document that listed all of the creditors but i'm not sure where i found that.
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arctic train

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Reply with quote  #2 
I was wondering the same thing the other day.  I logged in using my case number.  It recognized me but only gave me 2 options, start a new claim or modify the existing claim. Opting for the "modify an existing claim" essentially had me start a new claim all over again without showing me the original claim currently on file.  I guess the lesson here is to print your claim (if that was even an option, I don't remember) before you submit your claim.
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JG

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Reply with quote  #3 
If anyone wants, I can look it up for them (E-mailing about.ag [at] gmail.com is the quickest way). I don't publish the list to help reduce the chances that spammers/scammers get a hold of it.
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alanr

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Reply with quote  #4 
I ordered and paid for 100 oz of silver that I have not received from NWTM. It seems to me that I am owed 100 oz of silver or the cash equivalent on the date that restitution is made, unless the then current price should happen to be less than what I paid, in which case I would be owed that amount that I paid. I don't see how to denominate my claim in ounces of silver. 

Maybe the closest I can get to what is owed me is to use the field on the online "proof of claim" form that says "Does this amount include interest or other charges?" and add in the delta spot price times the number of ounces ordered?

Also, is there help on this forum or elsewhere on answering questions on the online p/o/c form regarding: number you use to identify the debtor, Is ... the claim secured, based on a lease, subject to a right of setoff, priority under 11 U.S.C. § 507(a)?

I think I see the answer to the last item (priority claim) at http://about.ag/NWTMint.htm, update dated June 21, 2016 8:10PM EST.

Thanks for any suggestions!
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JG

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanr
I ordered and paid for 100 oz of silver that I have not received from NWTM. It seems to me that I am owed 100 oz of silver or the cash equivalent on the date that restitution is made, unless the then current price should happen to be less than what I paid, in which case I would be owed that amount that I paid. I don't see how to denominate my claim in ounces of silver. 
...
Also, is there help on this forum or elsewhere on answering questions on the online p/o/c form regarding: number you use to identify the debtor, Is ... the claim secured, based on a lease, subject to a right of setoff, priority under 11 U.S.C. § 507(a)?

I think I see the answer to the last item (priority claim) at http://about.ag/NWTMint.htm, update dated June 21, 2016 8:10PM EST.

Thanks for any suggestions!


The bankruptcy system only allows you to denominate your claim in U.S. dollars.

In this bankruptcy, as well as the Tulving Company and Bullion Direct bankruptcies, the Trustees have calculated the claims based on the spot price of the metal on the date of the bankruptcy petition. Although their calculation isn't perfect, it seems to be the fairest way for everyone involved, as a generic calculation. It isn't necessarily fair (e.g. if you paid $25/oz, they stole it at $22/oz, it was $15.50/oz at the bankruptcy filing, and $18.50 today, nothing is really "fair", but if they stole the metal, they shouldn't benefit from spot going down), but the best "one size fits all" calculation.

For number used to identify the debtor, I believe that is for your own use. Some people have put an order number there, for example.

I believe a setoff is if you owe them money for something as well. I only saw that one used for the first time this past week (NWTM owed Pan American 70,000oz of silver, but Pan American owed NWTM $5K or so, so the $5K was subtracted from what was owed using the "setoff" box).

As for priority, I believe either all people who ordered but never got metal should be entitled to the $2,850(ish) of money used as a deposit (or nobody should be entitled). It is unclear if NWTM will "fix" that and make it fair (have everybody use it, or nobody), but in case they do not fix it, I personally would certainly take advantage of checking that box.

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kkelseven

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Reply with quote  #6 
JG, your blog is like a lighthouse on a storm tossed sea. I just studied your latest 2 entries on about.ag regarding Erdman and..Wow. Reading those Court documents, unbelievable the total Bull C#/&€ /corn those two are so Blatantly trying to pull off. I am Very impressed with the caliber of Legal Brief and Motion writings by trustee Calverts legal team. Also, the Judge.. Very impressive in his clarity of insight. I don't like anything that does not help us plaintiffs but I could not disagree with the reasoning that he spelled out behind his rulings. I feel that our trustee's team makes a very strong case; but the Judge does have constitutional grounds... Innocent until proven guilty. The Trustee might consider a writ of mandamus for the District Attorney to press wire fraud/ embezzlement on Hanson/Erdman immediately. Then Motion for Continuance on the Appeal until the Criminal Case bears fruit. Perhaps she'll turn States Evidence rather than risk growing old in prison. There are people on death row on less evidence. She does seem irritated enough to walk out of this scam.
I do hope that you are Considering my suggestion about your book. The drama is almost worth the price of admission. Also bear in mind who the players were inside AG. I honestly believe that you are sitting on a best seller and have the talent to make it great. Give it a shot. Like Trump said.. What The Hell Have You Got To Lose. Try it !
Thanks from all your new friends
And me................Kelley
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oldAG

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Reply with quote  #7 
It's one thing to speculate on a forum versus writing a book and providing what you believe are facts. Without really knowing all the true facts that you can prove opens yourself up to a boatload of trouble as Hansen did making public statements about someone that may turn out to be false, even if they are only half false.

Also, you can't depend on what any lawyer states as true facts, trustee or not, they all stretch the truth and omit information to get what they want. That's  just what they do on both sides. Now that's not to say he's not telling the truth, but you can't bet the farm on it, he's lost other arguments in front of this judge in the past.

This is very much like a court trial in slow motion, one side types up a motion and submits is as fact and the other side sends in a rebuttal, then the judge has to either make a decision, ask for more information or sets a hearing.

The judge makes a decision and then one side or the other decides to appeal that decision and it drags on and on and on.

It will be interesting to see what charges Hansen is facing down the road, but I don't know about Erdman facing the same things. It's hard enough to send the owner to jail let alone anyone working for them. Just look at that list of 152 bad brokers and dealers.
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kkelseven

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Reply with quote  #8 
Sometimes a Book is just a Book. It has an interesting story line, a plot twist and a grand Surprise ending.
The Library is full of them. Not All the authors are sued like Hanson was.
I see an excellent writer in J G's work. I also see an above average investigator. Add to that experience, insight and imagination; and that is someone's Book that I would like to read.
There is a Great Deal about this Story that we don't yet know; interesting TidBits. JG knows alot that we don't yet know. Things that he is still investigating.
Now I know that you mean well and are just trying to help; but try to understand that God gave us each our own special gift, our own special talent. I'm sure there are hundreds of things that you are the VERY best at. JG has a special talent as well. My special gift is to notice where a little encouragement MIGHT go a long way. You my friend sound a bit jaded at times. Some might agree that it is not Always Necessary to throw Terminal Amounts of Cold Water everywhere. Especially where some Encouragement might be less Wounding. You should know that there are things embedded in your writings that ARE Absolutely Correct. I have found them useful and explored them as you may have suggested. What I found was Very interesting and has given me much to ponder as I consider various options.
You have my sincere thanks.
I am hopeful that over time you will be even more generous with your Treasure Trove of Special Knowledge. You should know that very likely everyone who reads your writings here feels as you do; and that is that we will never get a dime from these BAS#€\% Turds. !!! But thanks to JG'S Blog we can at least enjoy the Drama unfolding. We did PAY A LOT for the Ringside Tickets.
Understand that while the SHOW goes on; all of us VICTIMS are putting $10.00 Bucks a Day in a Cookie Jar so that WHEN this is OVER 10YEARS from now; WE WILL ATTEND the Sentencing Hearings WAY LESS BROKE than WE ARE NOW. On THAT DAY we will Spit on HANSON'S GRAVE a.k.a Prison. For he will certainly Die in Prison like "The Man Who Knew Too Much". My research suggests that He MAY Present some "Risk" to people that I would PREFER NOT to know that I even Exist.
I may yet go to Vegas and be the Market Maker for the"Odds" on Hanson's "Expiration date". If it is not illegal to bet on a Criminal going back to Prison and NOT Coming OUT. If it is then I may bet Odds that Erdman turns stool pigeon for early release.
Correct me if I'm wrong; your betting that she never goes to Prison. Tell you what; if she goes to Prison you buy 2 of JG's Book 1 for me and 1 for you. If she doesn't; Same Deal except I Buy.
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JG

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldAG
It's one thing to speculate on a forum versus writing a book and providing what you believe are facts. Without really knowing all the true facts that you can prove opens yourself up to a boatload of trouble as Hansen did making public statements about someone that may turn out to be false, even if they are only half false.


In the U.S., the truth is almost always a perfect defense (although there are exceptions, they likely wouldn't apply here). And the gist of the story also plays a role:  is the title of the book "How to steal $40M and get away with it" with a picture of Hansen with money bags photoshopped in, or "The $40M Bullion Mystery" with a picture of a mostly-empty vault? That's what got Hansen in trouble: most of what he wrote was indeed true, but the message was not (that the person he defamed was on par with the world's most famous con artist).

I did fall for the public statement trap once:  I wrote about a company that a Trustee mentioned, but what the Trustee mentioned turnout out to only be half true, and the company threatened to sue me.

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oldAG

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Reply with quote  #10 
I've never suggested Hansen shouldn't go to jail, I actually believe all these thieving bastards should spend time in prison for their theft, from Tulving, Bullion Direct and Hansen. However after watching these failures unfold and how long it's taken, I'm not sure Hansen will go to prison after reading the outcome of what happened at that list of 152 other brokers and dealers. Hansen does have one thing going for him that Tulving and Bullion Direct didn't have and that is a large company with multiple different business operations with a huge inventory of all kinds, not just bullion. He does have a full scale minting operation along with his other businesses. I believe the greatest theft going on today is not what Hansen has already done to the investors but what the trustee is doing with the existing business and all it's inventory and assets that should be sold and distributed to the investors for a lot more than 10 cents on the dollar. Which would be more than what the trustee is estimating everyone will receive after he has done his thing for a year, assuming he is successful in gaining control of the last remaining company outside of NWTM. If he losses that fight, there may not be much of anything left after he and his lawyer friends get through billing for their services. Keep in mind the trustee stated the investors would be lucky to receive $5 million from the ashes when he's done, which has to be insane compared to the potential value of all the assets plus the existing inventory. Even the other dealers had value in the assets and they were nothing more than dealers versus a full fledged mint plus the other companies of which he already sold off one for nearly $1 million, leaving only $4 million left to reach that $5 million target. How much physical inventory was actually counted in those facilities, not just the vaults and that includes all the US Mint products and finished goods for Medallic art that is for sale.

Let me be perfectly clear one more time, I strongly believe there is a double screwing taking place for the investors. Well actually one has already taken place by Hansen and I believe the Trustee is conducting the second one today. Plus if the Trustee loses his gamble for Medallic Art, the losses will be huge for the investors compared to what they have already suffered.

How many brokers have gone to prison after stealing far more than these bullion dealers and how many assistants to the owners of any bullion dealer has gone to prison? Just my opinion as to why Erdman more than likely will not unless someone can prove she was involved in some kind of outright theft. Just because she was part of the business, doesn't make here any more responsible for the default than any other employee or manager, that falls on Hansen as far as I know. Just because she was living with him and helping run the business doesn't make her extra special or extra guilty.

Josh sees a lot more of what's going on than the rest of us, but from what he's posted, I haven't seen anything that directly ties her to any crimes, speculation maybe, but not any hard facts. At least not any that I've read, maybe I've missed something, but I don't believe so. As far as charging her with anything, that's pure speculation as these things take forever unless the investigators found some hard facts of real criminal activity early that they can charge her with, not just the company using up the stored inventory that they shouldn't have, which won't fall on her shoulders.

There sure isn't going to be any charges for her spending money on credit cards that NWTM paid for.

As far as the Gold and cash she claims belongs to her, that's a fight over possession as far as I can tell, as in, can you provide enough or any proof it's really yours to help determine who gets to keep it.

If Erdman deserves to spend some time in prison so be it, but I haven't heard of anything worthy of that yet.

I also didn't say Josh couldn't write a novel about NWTM and all their troubles, I just said it would be a risky venture and Josh knows as well as anyone that Hansen is the one person that would sue him in a heartbeat for anything he can, in prison or not and that takes a lot of money to defend yourself against lawsuits, even frivolous ones. Companies and individuals don't settle simple lawsuits for nothing, it's often just a matter of it being so much cheaper than fighting it in court, even if you win and they can be devastating if you lose, just ask Hansen!!!
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JG

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldAG
Josh sees a lot more of what's going on than the rest of us, but from what he's posted, I haven't seen anything that directly ties her to any crimes, speculation maybe, but not any hard facts. At least not any that I've read, maybe I've missed something, but I don't believe so.


Ultimately, the crime here is that $40M (minus assets the company has) was stolen from customers.

The question is who, if anyone, is responsible for the crime. Part of that depends on facts we do not know, and a lot depends on the law. For example, what about the employees who knew what was going on but did not speak up (knowing they could lose their job, or worse, if they did)? That question is not easy to answer. What if the accountants never told Hansen or Erdmann that the company was in bad financial shape?

Part of the problem is that there is no clear-cut definition of what the crime was. The closest we have to compare it to is Tulving. With Tulving, the owner wasn't sent to prison for stealing money. He wasn't sent to prison for filing for bankruptcy owing $15M or so more than there were assets. He was sent to prison for taking orders that he knew most likely could not be delivered in the timeframe promised. There are likely millions of companies do that. With NWTM, though, I think an even more serious problem is the storage metal that was poached. That, to me, seems clear cut, with the metal belonging to customers, and NWTM selling it. But again, *who* (if anyone) should go to jail for that?

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kkelseven

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Reply with quote  #12 
The Vault Manager !! Absolutely !
ACCESSORY BEFORE and After the FACTS.

At some point, God willing, some enterprising and Ambitious Legal/Political Animal will learn about all this and see it as the Political Springboard that it is for someone eyeing high office. That person could Easily Prosecute for a multitude of Charges. By Targeting Erdman as ACCESSORY for example and Waving the IRS under her nose; turning States Evidence is not an unrealistic expectation.
I agree with oldAG that some things ARE missing in this Drama; and in the above scenario what's missing is a MOTIVATED Prosecution.
HOWEVER, Expand your observation just a bit and you MAY notice JG.
He embodies the very character of someone who would RELENTLESSLY do there JOB of Prosecuting All The BAS#&%turds.
I suspect that He is NOT the ONLY such person of integrity, virtue and diligence who would be MOVED to Action IF IN A POSITION TO SO.
Apart from that, I maintain that the Basic Human Nature of GREED and Thirst for POWER is a great motivator for many; even some of the very PLAYERS in this drama.
Tell me Which One of these Legal Vermin you so rightfully Detest so Much would REFUSE a ready made Launching Pad to D.A., Mayor, A.G., Congressman, Senator or GOVERNOR.
As you so ELOQUENTLY indicated, these Guys are ALL ABOUT the MONEY ! And Also POWER I suspect.
Hanson may be getting DROOLED Over like a Thanksgiving turkey ( OPPORTUNITY WISE) by any number of people. Even if only as an Opportunity to be sold to some other (not currently involved) OPPORTUNISTS.
I am of the Opinion that God WRITES the Drama of our lives and THIS DRAMA is Not Yet OVER.
I get that you would like to see ACTION. We all would ! HOWEVER...........
JG is Right to Season this Turkey with the Sauce of Patience.
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oldAG

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Reply with quote  #13 
I'm of opinion the trustee and his legal team has no real interest in prosecuting anyone for anything. Their motive to date seems to be wrapped around keeping every penny  they can get their hands on and it doesn't matter if those pennies come from Hansen, Erdman or the creditors. It's going to take a lot of capital to keep NWTM up and running for another 7 months or so to meet the trustees schedule to turn that company into a larger profit for the creditor and in the mean time also pay his salary and that of his legal team for the legal fight for control of Medallic Art. All of which is coming out of the creditors pockets unless he can magically pay for all these legal fees and somehow manage to provide more to the creditors than he could have back in June or July by shutting down the entire operation and selling off all the assets. At that point in time the trustee would have had to fight for control of Medallic Art and it's assets with the judge or in another court. I don't know how that case will be determined and who has the legal authority to make that kind of decision. Bankruptcy judges have a lot of authority, but there has to be some limits to what they can and can't do as with all things in our legal system.

It's the FBI and possibly the state prosecutors that will be the ones that determine if they have anything to charge anyone with a crime and what that crime will be. Plus history shows us that in all likelihood they will never actually take anyone to trial, but instead plea bargain for a lighter sentence to avoid going to trial. It's just a fact of life in the legal system, they can't tie up their limited resources to send one or two people to prison for a few years, when they plea bargain major criminal cases down to nothing. I'm not suggesting this is a nothing case by any means, but when they are backlogged with rape, murder and god only knows what else, just how much of an effort do you expect them to put into one case that can end up putting white collar criminals behind bars for a few years when it's going to take so much effort and they don't have the time and manpower to put into real hard core criminals that take so little effort by comparison. I believe this falls under the heading of diminishing returns.

Is our justice system all screwed up that they have decided that someone that shoots and kills another person is deserving of a more severe penalty than someone that steals the hard earned savings of thousands of others totaling millions of dollars? It's just a fact of life that our laws view white collar crime less offensive because no one was actually injured. Even if many lives were ruined,  that doesn't really make much of a difference or if someone committed suicide as a result of his financial losses or the breakup of his or her marriage.

The federal government sure isn't going to spend a ton of time prosecuting this case, but as you suggest some local prosecutor might be willing to dedicate his manpower to such an effort for his own political gain, but how much is there to really gain from such an effort. NWTM is not JP Morgan, so where is the real payback for the effort and money spent to send one or two people to prison for a few extra years at most. Do you think the public in Washington where they would be charged would really be all that interest to know their prosecutor was dedicating a ton of his time on this case and not prosecuting real hardcore criminals. That's the kind of fodder his political opponent would use against him the next time he ran for office. There are always pluses and minuses when they look at any and every case.  

Now if anyone can uncover a major theft and prove where the Precious metal was stashed or cash was hidden which can be recovered would make a worthwhile fight for someone, but it would have to be something huge to make any political points. It's not hard to prove millions are missing, but so what to the white collar criminal system. It's recovering a major stash that has been set aside that would make for a juicy story in the press and in court for sentencing purposes.

Just look at all the bankruptcies that take place every day involving companies that have taken advantage of their customers or investors and how often is anyone actually sent to prison, it's a disgusting shame. It's the rare exception when we actually hear about one of these bastards actually going to prison versus not and it's even almost unheard of that one of them actually receives a just sentence. Madoff got his just reward if you can call it that at the end of his life cycle, but his family didn't loose all the money he stole from those people.  How many financial people other than Madoff have we seen go to prison for anything no matter how much damage they have done in recent decades and why would we expect someone like Hansen to go to jail for decades for what he did in comparison. It's been done before as that list of 152 brokers and dealers points out, one guy got multiple life sentences for his theft, but he seems to be the rare exception and I don't really know the details from that case. I assume one or more of the investors was someone in power that wanted his pound of flesh and justice was served in a heavy handed way.

I have my personal beliefs as to what has taken place at NWTM over the past several years and it does not fit anything that has been discussed in any form anywhere that I have seen. However that's just my beliefs based on my personal experience with people at NWTM up to 2009. Since I can't prove anything other than what others have told me back then, it's just hearsay and my personal theory as to what I believe has taken place. Like I suggest other might very well get sued for slander for stating facts that can't prove as being correct,  I don't plan on being one of them nor should I for something that is only a theory that I can't prove. It would also be wrong of me to make accusations like that if I was wrong no matter what took place, especially if Hansen is found not to be at fault. I'll just stand with others that believe Hansen belongs in prison for what he's done, regardless of how it was accomplished unless I'm totally wrong and Hansen is the complete idiot that someone suggested as a possible excuse for the missing inventory. Having personally talked with Hansen numerous times prior to 2009, I have no reason to believe he was anything but someone that was very much in charge of his company and very well aware of all aspects of the goings on. There is no way I could ever be convinced that literally millions of Dollars in inventory was stolen from those vaults without Hansen's knowledge, unless it involved Erdman and others behind his back. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen a major theft at a corporation that I was working for by insiders. Keep in mind that vault had very limited access by very few and millions of Dollars in missing inventory is a noticeable volume unless is was all in gold Bullion and it wasn't. The only way Hansen could not be aware of the missing inventory is if he never went into that vault himself and I don't believe that to be the case. I don't think anyone should be at all surprised if and when everything comes more into the open light, there might very well be a claim to the use of that stored inventory as NWTM discontinued the storage practice for customers before Bullion Direct went belly up. I'm not saying such an excuse exists, but I wouldn't be surprise if they don't or are not trying to claim the original customer storage contract no longer existed in the same form when they no longer offered it to all customers. Bullion Direct has used an argument along those lines and he didn't stop providing storage agreement with his customers. Maybe NWTM might have better luck selling that argument, as we'll eventually see down the line. What I'm saying is, no telling what will be revealed and arguments used when everything comes to light. Just look at it this way, they still haven't prosecuted anyone from Bullion Direct yet and he even stole his investors IRA bullion which should be good for, hopefully a federal offense.

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kkelseven

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Reply with quote  #14 
Patience....patience.
As an old friend just back from being shot up in Vietnam once said, " Every Dog has their Day, I've had mine". As far as Hanson is concerned; I'VE HAD MINE !
Whatever else happens, take notice of all the Lotto winners and how awful some of them ended up. That much Cash, Gold, Silver and WHATNOT; Most Often has a lot of EVIL lurking around it.
Case in point.... The IRS. That is serious Evil right there. Their Hellhounds are already monitoring this Drama. Add to that, whatever POLITICAL backscratching and Black bagging went on with that short shrift AG bull corn.
If it's all the same to you; I'll keep my ringside seat and order Extra popcorn.
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oldAG

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Reply with quote  #15 

ordering extra popcorn on a regular basis in probably what everyone will need to do when following this fiasco, if history has anything to do with it. You also might want to make that ringside seat a recliner for your comfort.

Lotto winners are some good examples of how not to handle a windfall, but sport stars are really the gold standard for screw-ups as these are the people exposed to lurkers and friends and relatives looking for ways to help spend all their money however they can, no matter how many tens of millions they have earned. 

However it sounds like your implying that with a ton of precious metal in those vaults it may have attracted a bunch of evil doers and that's always a possibility, but that's why they kept access to those vaults to a very limited few. Which is not to say a limited few can't turn out to be thieves themselves, but you lessen the odds of having them all turn out to be thieves. That is unless you select them for that specific activity.

But you are correct about patience. Speculating about what a State AG might do or not do or even what a state AG can possibly be sued over is pure speculation. Just like whatever the FBI, IRS or any other federal government agency may or may not have a deep interest in this case. NWTM is just one of a long list of cases to investigate and like everything else, it will be prioritized as to how much of an effort any official agency wants to spend time and resources on it. It's a top priority to everyone involved in this case just like the family members of a murder victim, but the rest of the world doesn't sympathize with our individual feelings. If it was a first time event, then there would probably be a great deal of interest, but it's just one more in a long list of crap taking place everywhere. Plus since well over 90% of the population could give two sh!ts about what happens to Gold and Silver, they could care less about this case. I'm willing to bet there are tons of old time stackers laughing their ass off at everyone that got burned by NWTM. How many times did those idiots have to be warned!!! Not that I ever shared those sentiments, but I've heard it over and over again. Since all of my generic one ounce rounds came from NWTM, I sure didn't listen to that advice myself, but I am pissed that I now have thousands of rounds that I can no longer count on a dedicated source to sell them back to no matter what the market place was doing on any given day. But at least I still have my Silver, just a bad reputation that goes along with it. So I'm only pissed and didn't get burned, timing.

Just like your friend from Vietnam, everything is timing. Being one step to close to that landmine that someone else stood on. Your still alive but your loaded with shrapnel and he's still alive but missing both legs.

I'd also get a mini fridge to set along side my recliner to set the microwave on top.

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