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taratot

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Reply with quote  #16 
JG, how do I notify the court of my new postal address?

I have indeed moved house in the last year.

Thanks.
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JG

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by taratot
JG, how do I notify the court of my new postal address?

I have indeed moved house in the last year.

Thanks.


I believe that Bullion Direct's attorney, Joe Martinec, has been handling that (martinec@mwvmlaw.com).

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Cbrad01

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Reply with quote  #18 
I haven't heard anything about anything...
I received the court notice, no ballot, no updates nothing, as a creditor it seems I don't matter at all.
I would have thought we would get some type of updates from the creditor committees or something, nothing...
In the end it seems like Charles, the lawyers and the courts have all cashed in and to us its go to h.... you don't matter.

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JG

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cbrad01
I haven't heard anything about anything...
I received the court notice, no ballot, no updates nothing, as a creditor it seems I don't matter at all.
I would have thought we would get some type of updates from the creditor committees or something, nothing...
In the end it seems like Charles, the lawyers and the courts have all cashed in and to us its go to h.... you don't matter.


It seems that Bullion Direct did a terrible job of getting the ballots to creditors; some certainly got them, but many did not. And in general, a creditors' committee (ironically) typically doesn't communicate to creditors.

Charles, though, is still being investigated by the FBI, and a "room full of lawyers" from the CFTC.

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oldAG

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Reply with quote  #20 
So what is the status, since the reorganization has been approved, are they open for business, buying metal and getting ready to sell, still in the planning stage, hoping to find some backing, any idea what they are doing other than worried about what their baby boy is facing right now?
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JG

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldAG
So what is the status, since the reorganization has been approved, are they open for business, buying metal and getting ready to sell, still in the planning stage, hoping to find some backing, any idea what they are doing other than worried about what their baby boy is facing right now?


They should still be in the planning stage, but I haven't heard (or discovered) anything definitive yet.

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jkline

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Reply with quote  #22 
I just don't see how this can get off the ground.   Restarting this company will take a massive infusion of cash.   Employees, office space, metal, and most of all, advertising... who would make a million dollar loan on on this patient that already died once on the operating table?
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JG

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkline
I just don't see how this can get off the ground.   Restarting this company will take a massive infusion of cash.   Employees, office space, metal, and most of all, advertising... who would make a million dollar loan on on this patient that already died once on the operating table?


It won't need metal; the sellers would take care of that (assuming they do not do catalog sales).

The technology for the platform should be there and essentially be automatic. If so, they don't really need many employees (2-3?) until they start getting orders (at which point they need people to accept/ship the orders, unless they have IDS or someone else do that -- but they would have money coming in at that point). They are starting off with $100K of cash, which I expect will last long enough to see if this can go somewhere or not.

The key, of course, will be getting people to use the system. It's unique, and there is demand for it -- but is there demand for it from a company based on a company that failed miserably, and can they get the word out to those who might want to use it?

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oldAG

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Reply with quote  #24 

I'd sure be interested in how they are going to make it work and draw any customers. You need to sell something and at a given price that is competitive to what established dealers can offer. That's not something a startup company can do by taking tiny orders and passing them on to some other company to fill and expect to actually make a profit. It can be done with large orders consisting of several hundred ounces at a time, but even then the margins would be raiser thin. Starting an online bullion dealership is a very risky business and you have to be very responsive to every detail unless you have a lot of backing or you do a lot of business which makes it much easier to stay in business with spot prices rising and falling throughout the day.

OR are you talking about them resurrecting that online sales platform where everyone trades their bullion versus a place to actually buy new anything like you would from a normal bullion dealer.

If so, didn't those people get burned as well as everyone else in that bankruptcy or did they somehow come out whole? In this case they would simply be the middle man taking a piece of the action and everyone else has to hope they don't steal their metal again, but it's not a cost free operation as people have to ship their metal into one common location and redistributed from there. Not that I ever used that system myself, but it wouldn't be very trustworthy if everything was left up to the individuals to do all the buying and selling without a middleman controlling to goods. Whoops the spot price just went crazy and I'm not going through with the deal. Oh crap I was shorted, some of my metal was fake, I received the wrong items, I never received anything at all!!! EBay is hard enough to police, who polices this system? They will certainly need a new identity to make this fly.

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JG

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldAG
OR are you talking about them resurrecting that online sales platform where everyone trades their bullion versus a place to actually buy new anything like you would from a normal bullion dealer.


That's exactly what I am talking about. I believe they (Joe/Dan and Charles' Mom) understood that being a traditional bullion dealer wouldn't work (low margins and tons more competition than when BD started). They have named the company "Platform Universe", suggesting the platform is the focus. And that has no competition.

As for those who used it, yes they did get burned (assuming they either had metal stored, or waiting to be delivered to them). Sellers would send the metal to BD, BD would verify it, and ship it to the buyer. I assume no storage would be done. Yes, you have to trust them -- but all eyes will be on them, and they will presumably have terms set up making it clear what they cannot do ("7. Stealing: We promise not to steal your money"; OK, that might be extreme). Something so that if they were to, for example, take metal from one customer and promise it to 2 customers, they would have personal liability.

 

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oldAG

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Reply with quote  #26 
I agree, the only logical way for any business like that to function is for a middle man to handle everything and make sure no one is getting stiffed, in the future that is[nono]

I don't know what kind of cut they are taking for their effort, but it has to be substantial or they will never make a dime paying for overhead and salaries or unless they are willing to work for nothing until their business is large enough to justify their actually paying themselves for their services. They'll need that $100,000 to make sure they can keep the ship afloat during who knows how long it will take to become profitable.

I looked at Bullion Direct as a potential source of new products and didn't find their premiums all that great and took a curious look at that other operation, but didn't pay much attention to it. So I don't know if people were using it to sell specialty items as well as just plain bullion products. Without seeing the actual prices people are asking and the fees involved, it's hard to tell how it will make out for them or the customers. I do know some of our members liked to use that system, but they never went into great detail as to why. For plain generic products, you have to be able to sell it for more than the spot price which you can get from many dealers and for the buyers, you should be able to buy it for less than what the dealers are selling comparable products for to make it worth your while to purchase second hand goods. So it makes me wonder how it can be a worthwhile venture dealing with .999 Silver products unless they have special value as individual pieces.

I'm just comparing it to EBay and the people out there selling Silver for a small profit and then paying for the shipping charges out of that profit when dealing with one ounce or smaller pieces of Silver at a time. They either have some low wage workers doing a lot of volume or it's individuals setting at home or in their coin shop filling wasted time making a few extra dollars.

I've never run a coin shop, but I've spent almost my entire life dealing with inventory control in just about every environment imaginable and certain things do not change no matter what your dealing with and that is labor to receive anything, labor to store said material and labor to input detailed information into a computer base, labor to retrieve said material, package and ship it. Sooner or later you have to settle up with the originator as well.

It sounds simple to say you are just receiving and storing it until you ship it to someone else and make a profit for your trouble, that's how vice presidents look at a project and wonder why the expenses are so high or your not making any profit at all for your trouble. They never take into consideration the amount of time you have to spend inspecting every piece you receive to make sure there are no duds hidden in the pile or all the labor involved in keeping everything separate for each deal, it's your reputation on the line down the road if the buyer gets stiffed and word spreads like wild fire on the internet today.

I'll have to watch it working and I can see it functioning for special items, but for people just wanting to add some generic to their stash, how can you compete with dealers that buy and sell generic one ounce rounds with a spread as little as 59 cents and free shipping.

Even if the operation was a simple as you suggested and they didn't store anything, just received the material, inspected it to make sure it was good and then forwarded it to the buyer, it would still be a very labor and expensive process when you add in the originators shipping charges, the middle mans costs of labor and then another shipping charge once again, but I doubt that is how it would work with everyone waiting for someone else to cough up the Silver they bought and the snail mail in both directions. I would never run an operation like that unless the Silver was in my possession before I allowed it to go online for sale. Imagine people saying, yes I bought a great deal last month, but the other guy refused to ship because the spot price jumped on him, I'll never buy anything at that place again. Same old law of doing business in precious metal, no bullion on hand, no sale, no cash in hand no ship.

You take a large dealer operation like Provident Metal who pays the spot price for generic Silver rounds, receives them in bulk and just stocks them all in one huge pile so to speak other than making sure of the ounces received and purity is OK. They then turn them around in bulk from that same pile and sell them for 59 cents over spot and ship them for free. That's low overheard, low margin and dealing in bulk quantities. This kind of competition is hard to deal with for bullion items.

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mindmelter

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Reply with quote  #27 
Many sold on the Nucleo Exchange because the commission was 1% compared to eBay's 8-10% (depending on if your a PowerSeller). The low commission obviously contributed to it's failure. I wrongly assumed they made up for the low commission on volume. The Nucleo also appeared to be safer because with eBay a seller is basically screwed if they get a fraudulent chargeback. I got one and there wasn't much I could do because the buyer lived 1000 miles away. I would have to sue him in his state which would cost too much.

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"In God We Trust"

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Reply with quote  #28 
Speaking for myself the main reason I used Nuclo for buying and selling was the 1% commission and "free" storage. You could buy metal, send them a check and store the metal in your portfolio without shipping cost killing you. You could then sell your metal make a cash withdraw and BD would cut a check and mail it to you. You could do all that without touching any metal. I never had any problems with the cash withdraws. I thought the whole thing was a brilliant idea.

I'll admit I'm having a hard time believing the new business is going to make it. Especially when the high cost CRO and lawyers need to be paid. Only time will tell. I know I won't be buying or selling anything with them.

Hoping the best to all that lost their hard earned money.
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Cbrad01

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Reply with quote  #29 
Reading this, I used them for all the reasons folks listed, low fees p, storage and such...
I thought they had a great idea, but I would be hard pressed to do businesses now with them unless they are bonded without enough coverage to settle my account.
I would be fine with a couple of points to cover costs, a small storage fee, etc. But after being burned I would want a clear bond to cover my assets.
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oldAG

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Reply with quote  #30 
a 1% commission for being the middle man was doomed to fail no matter how cheap your labor force is, but it's a good source of revenue if you have plans on doing other things with that metal belonging to other people.

Unless they set minimum limits to buy and sell for each type of metal, it would be impossible to deal with a 1% commission.

A one ounce gold coin selling at $1,000 is only worth $10 for them to receive, store, input the information into their system that it's available and reverse the process when it's time to retrieve, package and ship that coin to someone.

Now that doesn't require any real storage space at all, but it does require time and they are working off of a $10 commission.

Now when you get into receiving $1,000 worth of Silver, it's still only a $10 commission but the amount of effort on your part is much different. You now have to look at roughly 50 pieces of Silver to store and the shipping will be more involved when it goes out the other end and your still only doing this for $10.

Obviously the greater the value the greater the commission and the easier it will be to make an actual profit, so Gold coins would be the preferred product to handle.

A monster box of ASE's worth $10,000 would fetch a fair $100 commission if you could turn it around in a single sale, but if it's bought up by 10 or 15 different buyers, that's a lot of work for that $100 commission.

My point is Tulving use to run a really tight commission and the only way he could make it work was to sell in 500 ounce quantities only and he was very popular with his prices for those wanting to buy in volume.

But even Tulving went down taking millions with him and I there may have been other factors in play.

These two may be willing to run this business for a 1% profit and make little to no profit at all for the next two or three years according to the creditors contract and then they get to take over the business and do whatever they want again, if and when junior gets out of prison!!!

If they are charging a more realistic commission, then maybe they can actually make a tiny profit, but I doubt it at 1%.


I am curious how this system works though. I understand you send in your 1,000 ounces of NWTM one ounce rounds to sell them at a price greater than what you can get from a regular dealer or you wouldn't do it.

Do you set your sell price at something above the floating spot price during the day or just lay it out there at a fixed price no matter what the spot price is doing or go out there and make adjustments as the spot price changes?

Or do you put your Silver up for bid with a minimum bid price and a deadline for bidding and hope for the best in relationship to the spot price?

I've watched how EBay works, but not how Bullion Direct worked. I just noticed people had certain amounts of inventory for sale the one time I looked at it and that was years ago. It wasn't something I was interested in so I didn't look into the functioning of the system. It wasn't a matter of looking for a source to buy, as I had stopped adding to my stack, just looking at different dealers for new buy deals for fellow members on our web page.



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