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bull123

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Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #31 
If CM was taking in money and not buying product

what difference does it make if the business was profitable or not profitable?

my hunch is "the cheaper he sold stuff for" ... the more cash rolled in

this wasn't about profits ... this was about getting fools to send him money

we are all guilty for enabling this madness

just my two cents ...
1
nobody

Senior Member
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Posts: 360
Reply with quote  #32 
The short version is, because we got screwed, we now own BD, for all intents and purposes - and we're trying to figure out how to value our new and unexpected asset.

Assuming all hope is lost is a fine attitude to take, and it's clear you're accepting of it - the rest of us aren't.  Please help, or at least stop being counterproductive.
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Khachir7

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JG
Quote:
Originally Posted by bull123
I guess it is pretty obvious now the Nucleo patent and IP and trading platform are truly worth ZERO

Software used for an alleged ponzi ... that tends to have a very negative smell to it

does anyone really think there will be money coming back to them courtesy of the bankruptcy court and lawyers and other leeches?

these $850 an hour lawyers are designed to suck up every last penny


We'll see about the patent -- if a reputable ("if") firm came up with the $10M valuation, it should have at least *some* value to it. Although the Ponzi-like aspect might encourage lowball bids, that isn't a given.

As for $850/hour, that was in the Tulving case -- Mr. Martinec only charges $450/hour (with his partners charging just $350/hour). Of course it all depends on how efficient they are ("Yeah, I'm billing for an hour to research the law on X and another hour to write the motion" versus "I know the law inside and out and have done lots of these motions, that'll just take a half hour total" -- that piece is very hard to determine).






That reminds me of a famous ponzi scheme caught in Russia a number of years ago. The guy went to prison for several years. Now he is out and successfully using the same "business model" in India... I know this from a reputable source. People are unaware or have short memories, I guess.
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Khachir7

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobody
The short version is, because we got screwed, we now own BD, for all intents and purposes - and we're trying to figure out how to value our new and unexpected asset.

Assuming all hope is lost is a fine attitude to take, and it's clear you're accepting of it - the rest of us aren't.  Please help, or at least stop being counterproductive.


Thumbs up!
0
bull123

Senior Member
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Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #35 
What type of asset takes peoples money (in the millions) and ships no product?

A company like this has NEGATIVE value ...

and the negative = the amount of money folks are owed (and then subtract the bad will etc ...)

so the value of your unexpected asset is negative $100 million
1
nobody

Senior Member
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Posts: 360
Reply with quote  #36 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bull123
What type of asset takes peoples money (in the millions) and ships no product?



The VXX ETF would be a start.

I'm not asking you to take a business course or learn to read a patent - I'm suggesting you're not even venting your anger in a productive fashion - you're wasting other peoples time who are actually trying to help themselves - and vicariously, you.
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bull123

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Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #37 
I don't mean to piss anyone off (we all feel bad)

There is just something very disturbing going on here ... in many ways

Bullion Direct:

not profitable since 1999 ... a guy who travels to Dubai ... giving himself a severance package

$300K salary in the last year of a company like this

WTF is going on here?

Where is Dateline NBC and Chris Hansen when we need him most?
0
nobody

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Posts: 360
Reply with quote  #38 
We're all pissed and angry - and it's not at you, honest!

At this point, we've got all the major agencies with the power to do anything on the criminal side of the law investigating, so at this point, as creditors, we should be focusing on maximizing our recovery in whatever fashion.

I'll talk to lawyers and the DoJ, but I'd rather not talk to the press if it's all the same, so I'll leave that to others.

I'm hoping the UCC will have their thoughts (was hoping today, but time seems to be slipping even on the west coast), and that should at least tell us how they want to handle the estate.

After that, it's about recovery "beyond" the bank account - the IP is one that's been held up -- my personal value of it, like yours is close to nil, but let's not sell it to me for a dollar yet, DB/BM may yet propose a sane plan for some ongoing recovery.

The rest is "where did the money go", and "was a crime committed".

While it's the FBI's job to figure out #2, it's in our interests to figure out #1 if at all possible - assets we can trace we can freeze and maybe eventually collect (if we can show wrongdoing - and without saying CM committed crimes, he does have multiple criminal attorneys on retainer...).  Either way, frozen assets can't go to his lawyers ;-).

My general thought here is hire a pro at this - and offer them a percentage - the theoretical "max" value to recover is 32 million dollars.  Even at 10% that could be a 3.2MM payday for someone -- that seems like plenty of incentive to work a few hours up front, no?  They can always walk away saying it's too hard - but I'd rather hear someone with more experience tell me that.

I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a collections agent, I'm an internet nobody who, like you, got screwed - and am looking for legal and potentially effective ways to remedy it.


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bull123

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Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #39 
one thing to keep in mind ...

CM probably took in more than $32 million+

think about it ... in 2011 Silver was 3X the price it is today ... so people were sending in a lot more money to "get" less product ...

then the price comes way down ... so the total owed is ONLY $32 million in 2015 dollars

but in fact, he might have taken in between $60-100 million in gross funds to get to that $32 million figure of today

there is some serious money somewhere ... WTF ...

allegedly only of course ... IMHO
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stacker

Junior Member
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Posts: 10
Reply with quote  #40 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bull123
CM probably took in more than $32 million+

think about it ... in 2011 Silver was 3X the price it is today ... so people were sending in a lot more money to "get" less product ...


It is hilariously ironic that the guy was basically *shorting* metal since 2011 so all this nonsense could have actually worked out in his favor if he didn't squander our money on whatever.

Well, I guess at $275k / year and a $30k severance, it did work out for him.
0
bull123

Senior Member
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Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #41 
I don't think he could have spent $60-100 million

that's why i think this money has to be burried somewhere

but i doubt he'll ever give up the spot

think of it like this:

Breaking Bad ... final season ... Walter White burries the cash in the New Mexico desert
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nobody

Senior Member
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Posts: 360
Reply with quote  #42 
At 900$/hr for a high-end white collar attorney, the pair he's got will burn that in just under a month - he better hope he squirreled some away.
0
bull123

Senior Member
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Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #43 
CM is going to be flush with cash for the rest of his life

maybe he spends a year or two in prison ... maybe not (I'm betting he gets the Tulving treatment)

but when he gets out

$$$
0
PM

Member
Registered:
Posts: 41
Reply with quote  #44 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobody
We're all pissed and angry - and it's not at you, honest!

At this point, we've got all the major agencies with the power to do anything on the criminal side of the law investigating, so at this point, as creditors, we should be focusing on maximizing our recovery in whatever fashion.

I'll talk to lawyers and the DoJ, but I'd rather not talk to the press if it's all the same, so I'll leave that to others.

I'm hoping the UCC will have their thoughts (was hoping today, but time seems to be slipping even on the west coast), and that should at least tell us how they want to handle the estate.

After that, it's about recovery "beyond" the bank account - the IP is one that's been held up -- my personal value of it, like yours is close to nil, but let's not sell it to me for a dollar yet, DB/BM may yet propose a sane plan for some ongoing recovery.

The rest is "where did the money go", and "was a crime committed".

While it's the FBI's job to figure out #2, it's in our interests to figure out #1 if at all possible - assets we can trace we can freeze and maybe eventually collect (if we can show wrongdoing - and without saying CM committed crimes, he does have multiple criminal attorneys on retainer...).  Either way, frozen assets can't go to his lawyers ;-).

My general thought here is hire a pro at this - and offer them a percentage - the theoretical "max" value to recover is 32 million dollars.  Even at 10% that could be a 3.2MM payday for someone -- that seems like plenty of incentive to work a few hours up front, no?  They can always walk away saying it's too hard - but I'd rather hear someone with more experience tell me that.

I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a collections agent, I'm an internet nobody who, like you, got screwed - and am looking for legal and potentially effective ways to remedy it.


The FBI will also figure out #1
The FBI's fraud division has some very talented financial detectives.
They will follow paper and electronic trails to find hidden assets if there are any.
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JG

Administrator
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Posts: 955
Reply with quote  #45 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bull123
I don't think he could have spent $60-100 million

that's why i think this money has to be burried somewhere


I have heard that quite a bit of money may have gone to some companies (startups) that buddies of his were working on. Some was essentially wasted on stuff that wasn't necessary, with commissions going to his buddies. Some may have been given out as interest-free loans (did that money come back?).

So I think nobody's idea of finding the right person to get 10% of the money they find might be in order.

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