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nobody

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Reply with quote  #46 
I'll bet you an internet point that unless he can turn over someone even shadier with actual assets, he'll be spending his time in jumpsuits for a very long time.

Think of it this way - Madoff and a lot of the others - they fucked over a few dozen rich guys, and it only got press after he was arrested.

This guy screwed over people for whom it was their entire retirement, their savings, their endowment to their family - and it wasn't just "misinvested", it was misrepresented, and squandered and secreted - yes in the plain light of day, but that doesn't make the number of injured any less, or reduce the gravity of their loss.

Now imagine you're running for office, or thinking about it down the way - or you just really like being a good FBI agent / AUSA - which guy are you going to give a slap on the wrist to? The guy who can tell you where the money is and make some rich guys whole (who just want the money)?  Or someone who injured thousands of just regular joe individuals across the country?

You've always been able to rely on the GOB's because you could pay your friends to keep being your friends - how fast will they turn on you when you can't even access your funds because it might reveal the jig being up?  Especially when people find out that they're your "friend"?

The ones who got off 'light' lost nickles on the dollar - charles went for the whole buck - there is a very big difference to both us and the legal system.  Justice is blind, not dumb.
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nobody

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Reply with quote  #47 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PM
The FBI will also figure out #1 The FBI's fraud division has some very talented financial detectives. They will follow paper and electronic trails to find hidden assets if there are any.


I'm not actually trying to dispute you - but I'm not certain they'll do much towards trying to actively recover it.

They are the federal bureau of investigation - they will investigate where it went.  They will refer the information to an US attorney, who will handle the criminal complaint.

Information they enter into the docket into that criminal complaint could be used by creditors as evidence for obtaining civil remedy against CM - but -- and really, please, show me a case -- it's 99.9% of the time the estate that must pursue civil damages.

There may be a fine - but that goes to the treasury.  If you want civil remedy ($) - you need not only to be a victim, not only to show a crime was committed, but also get a judge to say "look, that crime made you a victim, it was committed by him, the next guy knowingly helped, and he still has a dollar - I give that dollar to you".

The FBI is investigating things related to the Criminal Code - that is, jailtime judges.

If you want money Civil remedy - that is, money judges.

Similar things - but when a verdict is read, it's the difference between paying your traffic ticket, and being escorted to jail.
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PM

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Reply with quote  #48 
The FBI will seize any assets if fraud is involved.
Do you think you can find a lawyer to do what the FBI is doing on a contingency basis?
Are you willing to spend a lot of money for this lawyer to do the same thing the FBI is doing?
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JG

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Reply with quote  #49 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobody
Information they enter into the docket into that criminal complaint could be used by creditors as evidence for obtaining civil remedy against CM - but -- and really, please, show me a case -- it's 99.9% of the time the estate that must pursue civil damages.


With Tulving, it was the U.S. Attorney that went after him (with the Secret Service seizing the coins). If it were not for the bankruptcy, my understanding is that the seized coins would have been sold/auctioned by the government, with proceeds going to the victims.

That's different than the FBI, but there was nothing civil about the assets in the Tulving case. Yes, quite different (e.g. the coins were originally assets in plain sight, not hidden).

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nobody

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Reply with quote  #50 
I'm looking more to cases like Madoff / Stanford / etc - the FBI sent (some) to jail - but it's the trustees who went after recovery.

Tulving is the closest bullion dealer similar - but not the closest similar financial crime (imho)
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JG

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Reply with quote  #51 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PM
The FBI will seize any assets if fraud is involved. Do you think you can find a lawyer to do what the FBI is doing on a contingency basis? Are you willing to spend a lot of money for this lawyer to do the same thing the FBI is doing?


A Google search didn't turn up much except an ad -- for CSI Legal which (among other things) goes after hidden assets.

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nobody

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Reply with quote  #52 
As it is - I don't know what a fair percentage is, but I think a number of attorneys/collectors would spend at least a few hours of their time researching for the chance to hit the "big" one if it's out there.  And the pot's big enough that I'm not sure the percentage even needs to be that high.

Still - I think the UCC should explore the possibility - I'm not an expert in this field - but I don't see any substantial assets coming directly from the estate's accounts - and if we find something that makes the FBI's job easier (or vice versa) - I don't see that as precluding our interests in expediting recovery or freezing of assets to the extent it's appropriate.

I think sitting on our hands hoping on the IP has a low probability of making me whole - but I've seen a lot of people dance when you start dangling six, seven and eight figure potential windfalls in front of them.  It certainly seemed to have an effect on CM :-/

 
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Pingu

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Reply with quote  #53 
A nice guy doesn't screw over 6000 people and abscond with 32 million dollars.  I too, think there is money or metal squirreled away somewhere.  I just find it hard to believe he could blow through that much money.  Of course he is living off our money right now.  We are paying for his criminal attorneys and his convenient new life in Alabama. The depth of the deception is proof enough that the guy is a POS common criminal.

I like nobody's idea of finding someone that would be willing to work on contingency to pursue the money.  JG has been a tremendous voice of reason and I feel that we should gather some more information before rushing to Chapter 7. We just don't see enough of the picture yet to formulate the best course of action.  I do think we need to be relentless in bringing CM and others to justice.
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PM

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Reply with quote  #54 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JG
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobody
Information they enter into the docket into that criminal complaint could be used by creditors as evidence for obtaining civil remedy against CM - but -- and really, please, show me a case -- it's 99.9% of the time the estate that must pursue civil damages.


With Tulving, it was the U.S. Attorney that went after him (with the Secret Service seizing the coins). If it were not for the bankruptcy, my understanding is that the seized coins would have been sold/auctioned by the government, with proceeds going to the victims.

That's different than the FBI, but there was nothing civil about the assets in the Tulving case. Yes, quite different (e.g. the coins were originally assets in plain sight, not hidden).

Why was the Secret Service involved? Treasury related?
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PM

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Reply with quote  #55 
If two criminal lawyers are being paid and relocating to Alabama (house purchase?)and paying college fees for child... etc.
there must be a bank account with quite of an amount in it?
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JG

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Reply with quote  #56 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PM
Why was the Secret Service involved? Treasury related?


The Secret Service does some stuff that most aren't aware of -- for example, helping other agencies to quickly take action, and investigating financial crimes.

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JG

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Reply with quote  #57 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PM
If two criminal lawyers are being paid and relocating to Alabama (house purchase?)and paying college fees for child... etc. there must be a bank account with quite of an amount in it?


Quite possibly. If someone had filed a lawsuit against him and frozen his assets (as happened with Tulving), those assets could be frozen and perhaps the amounts in the accounts known.

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JG

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Reply with quote  #58 
http://www.pimall.com/nais/nl/n.assetsriddle.html is an interesting webpage about finding hidden assets. It's designed for PIs, but gives some insights as to the processes someone might use.

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nobody

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Posts: 360
Reply with quote  #59 
Maybe?

My own research has indicated at least a lot of transactions by the McAllister's in the last few years.  That might be CM mortgaging his personal assets to keep the business afloat and downsizing -- but his salary suggests to me otherwise.

I see a lot of transactions that might be perfectly legitimate, and a lot of ones that give me pause - I don't have the experience to chase them down myself - but a smart person with potential incentive could probably sort the shadiest looking ones.  You wouldn't even necessarily have to limit yourself to one - just figure out how you prioritize the payment if you get multiple agents that lead to a recovery.

I'm hypothesizing mostly - and anyone who's got experience or ideas here, please correct or comment -- I'm 100% happy to wait if you can sell me that someone else is now fighting to get back my dollar -- but the more I've learned about this (and I'm far from any expert here) - the more I think it's in our interests to ask people what they can do to get (more of) our dollar back.
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bull123

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Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #60 
How can you tell what his personal transactions are ???

that sounds sketchy ...

the thing is ... if he took in $60-100 million and bought very little Gold

where is the money ???

he didn't just spend it on cheeseburgers ...
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