[For news on NWT Mint, see http://about.ag/NWTMint.htm]
[For research on bullion dealers, see http://BullionDealerData.com]




Forum
Sign up Calendar Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
JG

Administrator
Registered:
Posts: 991
Reply with quote  #1 
So far, 109 claims have been filed.

The smallest claim so far is for $155.73, the largest customer claim is for $165,000 (the next highest is $105,000).

The average customer claim (by my calculations, which fix some obvious errors) is $14,789.11. That should really be a bit higher, as about 10% of the claims are listed as $0. The median claim (half higher, half lower) is $5,604. The average claim times the number of claims is the amount owed customers who have filed claims; the median helps show that higher dollar values skew the average claim.

Something that concerns me is the average claim: $14,789.11. If there are 5,000 customers (although 8,000 seems more accurate, there are likely a lot of duplicates), that would result in $74M in claims. That is much higher than the "As great as $25M" put out by Bullion Direct.

Hopefully, this discrepancy is just due to the small sample size (roughly 2% of claims). With the Tulving case, when 2% of the claims were in, the average customer claim was about 38% higher than the eventual average claim once all Proof of Claim forms were filed. So a skewing of the numbers is certainly possible (e.g. those with larger claims more susceptible to the Texas "impulse claims" as they let you file online).

0
wes878

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 3
Reply with quote  #2 
I am not sure what to do here.  I don't have a legal background, and I had less than 100 ounces of silver and no cash on the books at BD. I guess I was one of the "legacy" holders, as my silver was in my account, but it wasn't sent to the secure storage facilities, and I paid nothing to store it.  Basically I was just using it to trade in nucleo.  How do I try and get that silver back?  Am I supposed to file a claim on the list that was emailed to everyone a few weeks ago?  I don't think I have enough silver on the books to hire an attorney, I would probably spend more money on fees, than what I have in silver.  Any advice would be much appreciated.  Thanks!
0
JG

Administrator
Registered:
Posts: 991
Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wes878
I am not sure what to do here.  I don't have a legal background, and I had less than 100 ounces of silver and no cash on the books at BD. I guess I was one of the "legacy" holders, as my silver was in my account, but it wasn't sent to the secure storage facilities, and I paid nothing to store it.  Basically I was just using it to trade in nucleo.  How do I try and get that silver back?  Am I supposed to file a claim on the list that was emailed to everyone a few weeks ago?  I don't think I have enough silver on the books to hire an attorney, I would probably spend more money on fees, than what I have in silver.  Any advice would be much appreciated.  Thanks!


In general, in a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, there should be no need to do anything, and you should get paid your share of whatever creditors end up getting paid.

You need to make sure that your name and amount you are owed is listed correctly when the list of creditors is released (which should be within a few days); if you are properly listed (I'll provide more details at the time), the court should notify you if you need to do anything else.

There is a lot of discussion here of other possibilities (hiring a lawyer for hand-holding, criminal actions, etc.), but that it more intended for people who want to be more pro-active and have time and/or money to look into those ideas.

In the Tulving case (a bullion dealer that owed $17M to customers), few people hired attorneys.

0
nobody

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 360
Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
hiring a lawyer for hand-holding, criminal actions, etc.


Usually I commit my own crimes, and pay the lawyer get me out of trouble - I shall try your approach next time and report back for comparison.
0
shooter magaven

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 138
Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JG
In the Tulving case (a bullion dealer that owed $17M to customers), few people hired attorneys.



And he's not in prison and nobody has gotten a dime yet? Hmmm
0
JG

Administrator
Registered:
Posts: 991
Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter magaven
Quote:
Originally Posted by JG
In the Tulving case (a bullion dealer that owed $17M to customers), few people hired attorneys.

And he's not in prison and nobody has gotten a dime yet? Hmmm


The U.S. Attorney charged him with wire fraud. Some of the documents are sealed.

However, there are assets that have been valued in the ballpark of what is owed customers, and Hannes Tulving had a plan in place that would have immediately given customers $.24 on the dollar, making them whole after some time to sell the numismatic items. And that's after having millions of dollars siphoned out of the business.

0
shooter magaven

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 138
Reply with quote  #7 
Hey JG, this is off topic, but I just noticed that your sticky about " Bullion Direct out of business. .." has 911 views.
I doubt very many are duplicate views. Might be a good indication of how many customers are looking for their metal so far, no?
0
wes878

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 3
Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JG
Quote:
Originally Posted by wes878
I am not sure what to do here.  I don't have a legal background, and I had less than 100 ounces of silver and no cash on the books at BD. I guess I was one of the "legacy" holders, as my silver was in my account, but it wasn't sent to the secure storage facilities, and I paid nothing to store it.  Basically I was just using it to trade in nucleo.  How do I try and get that silver back?  Am I supposed to file a claim on the list that was emailed to everyone a few weeks ago?  I don't think I have enough silver on the books to hire an attorney, I would probably spend more money on fees, than what I have in silver.  Any advice would be much appreciated.  Thanks!


In general, in a Chapter 11 bankruptcy, there should be no need to do anything, and you should get paid your share of whatever creditors end up getting paid.

You need to make sure that your name and amount you are owed is listed correctly when the list of creditors is released (which should be within a few days); if you are properly listed (I'll provide more details at the time), the court should notify you if you need to do anything else.

There is a lot of discussion here of other possibilities (hiring a lawyer for hand-holding, criminal actions, etc.), but that it more intended for people who want to be more pro-active and have time and/or money to look into those ideas.

In the Tulving case (a bullion dealer that owed $17M to customers), few people hired attorneys.



Thanks.  What is that claim list that everyone is talking about though?
I did get an email with a link to some kind of form that I could fill out if I wanted.  What exactly is that for??
0
JG

Administrator
Registered:
Posts: 991
Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter magaven
Hey JG, this is off topic, but I just noticed that your sticky about " Bullion Direct out of business. .." has 911 views. I doubt very many are duplicate views. Might be a good indication of how many customers are looking for their metal so far, no?


That is a good gauge of how many people are actively looking into it.

What was even more interesting is that Bullion Direct has E-mailed somewhere in the order of 5,000 people about the bankruptcy, with a link to a document. Less than 1 in 3 people opened the document. So there are likely tons of people out there who either don't care, or don't pay much attention to these things.

0
shooter magaven

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 138
Reply with quote  #10 
Wes, there was a creditors email list that came out about a week ago. Just a list of customer's emails that were on file.

The actual creditors list showing what you are recognized as being owed has not been posted yet. Supposed to be out by Thursday, I believe.

0
JG

Administrator
Registered:
Posts: 991
Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wes878
Thanks.  What is that claim list that everyone is talking about though?
I did get an email with a link to some kind of form that I could fill out if I wanted.  What exactly is that for??


I'm not sure why that claim list ("Possible Website Claimants") got so much attention. It was just a list that Bullion Direct put together to "Wow" the court into allowing them not to have to send mail to each person for each court document filed. I think a lot of people assumed it was the list of creditors (which *is* very important).

I'm not sure which form that would be; I don't think that Bullion Direct sent out a link to Proof of Claim forms (which *might* need to be filed, but in theory should not).

Normally, you should not have to fill out any forms (with the possible exception of the Proof of Claim).
0
shooter magaven

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 138
Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JG
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter magaven
Hey JG, this is off topic, but I just noticed that your sticky about " Bullion Direct out of business. .." has 911 views. I doubt very many are duplicate views. Might be a good indication of how many customers are looking for their metal so far, no?


That is a good gauge of how many people are actively looking into it.

What was even more interesting is that Bullion Direct has E-mailed somewhere in the order of 5,000 people about the bankruptcy, with a link to a document. Less than 1 in 3 people opened the document. So there are likely tons of people out there who either don't care, or don't pay much attention to these things.



Maybe there really aren't that many customers actually owed metal/money. I could see a scenario where a lot of people (6000+) signed up with BD over the last 15 years, but most, either never actually used it much, pulled all there product out years ago, only bought via catalog and took immediate deliver, and just never made an effort to go back and close their account. I never received emails from them over the years unless It was to confirm a recent transaction. Otherwise, I would have easily forgot about them.


0
wes878

Junior Member
Registered:
Posts: 3
Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JG
Quote:
Originally Posted by wes878
Thanks.  What is that claim list that everyone is talking about though?
I did get an email with a link to some kind of form that I could fill out if I wanted.  What exactly is that for??


I'm not sure why that claim list ("Possible Website Claimants") got so much attention. It was just a list that Bullion Direct put together to "Wow" the court into allowing them not to have to send mail to each person for each court document filed. I think a lot of people assumed it was the list of creditors (which *is* very important).

I'm not sure which form that would be; I don't think that Bullion Direct sent out a link to Proof of Claim forms (which *might* need to be filed, but in theory should not).

Normally, you should not have to fill out any forms (with the possible exception of the Proof of Claim).


It was from Bullion Direct and contained a link for this: 
Order Combined With Notice of Chapter 11 Bankruptcy Case, Meeting of Creditors, & Deadlines,

Now that I look closer, it seem to be talking about filling out a form if you are a creditor making a claim.  I guess that's not us??  I do have screen shots of my total metal holdings and all the buy order confirmations, so hopefully that will be enough if I need it.
0
JG

Administrator
Registered:
Posts: 991
Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter magaven
Maybe there really aren't that many customers actually owed metal/money. I could see a scenario where a lot of people (6000+) signed up with BD over the last 15 years, but most, either never actually used it much, pulled all there product out years ago, only bought via catalog and took immediate deliver, and just never made an effort to go back and close their account.


From what I can tell, they were only sending E-mails to people owed money. They could easily get a list of all their accounts, and E-mail them all, but are choosing not to. So I believe these people are all owed *something*.

0
JG

Administrator
Registered:
Posts: 991
Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wes878

It was from Bullion Direct and contained a link for this: 
Order Combined With Notice of Chapter 11 Bankruptcy Case, Meeting of Creditors, & Deadlines,

Now that I look closer, it seem to be talking about filling out a form if you are a creditor making a claim.  I guess that's not us??  I do have screen shots of my total metal holdings and all the buy order confirmations, so hopefully that will be enough if I need it.


Ah, yes -- that's the one where they let you know that if your claim does not appear properly in the list of creditors (to be filed soon) you would need to fill out a Proof of Claim form. Hopefully, they will file the deadline tomorrow.

0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.