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nobody

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Posts: 360
Reply with quote  #1 
While we've got a thread focusing on how BD will plan to defend itself in BK, I really think there's merit to wondering if  bankruptcy (which is about the resolution of BD's assets) is indeed the forum most appropriate for resolving claims.

So if one wanted to show evidence a crime was committed, what facts could we include as evidence for some upstart DA to accidentally across, or for some injured party on this forum to include in any complaint in their communications?

While I'm a catalog "victim", I think the IRA holders have the strongest arguments of being criminally victimized, so my first couple:

I believe the answer is yes, but someone with an IRA held at BD has confirmed at least some of the metal is not there?

I believe the answer is yes, but someone has confirmed there is less metal present than any percentage of the assets supposed to be held under IRA?  Can we get equity to assert what cumulative assets BD last told them were in trust?

Did BD knowingly not purchase and fulfill orders to IRAs, of which it had not only a contractual but legal obligation?

After such a fact, did any of those misappropriated IRA monies flow to CM, his wife or his extended family?

Understand, a criminal proceeding will not get you made whole - the government charges crimes and all.  But if a criminal proceeding finds sufficient evidence of fraud, it becomes substantially easier to not only claw back assets, but win damages for your potential civil claims.

I don't advocate vengeance, but as we learn more and more, less and less do I see this as a simple civil tort case - to that end, civil solutions (bankruptcy) also seem less and less as appropriate remedy to the circumstances.  I have strong reason to believe a crime was knowingly committed, and if others feel the same way, it's not unreasonable to seek out the criminal justice system for redress.

-n
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nobody

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Posts: 360
Reply with quote  #2 
As far as charges go, I have to say, I like the sound of embezzlement.  The z's make it sound snappy...
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Alabama

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Reply with quote  #3 
I think he should be charged with fraud,co-mingling of funds,interstate wire fraud,embezzlement,theft by deception,tax evasion,recieving stolen goods & a whole host of things you could nail him with
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nobody

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Posts: 360
Reply with quote  #4 
You know, the original topic was too on the nose for a real discussion I think;

Perhaps, to satisfy my own curiosity about nemos assertions, I did some digging;

Reminder, I'm not a lawyer, and for all you know, I might be charles mcallister.

I'm of a mind that a crime was committed, but being out of state dissuaded me from taking direct action other than complaining to regulatory (not investigatory/enforcement authorities).

I suspect for firm evidence, I'd want to wait until there's a sworn statement of assets from BD - but once that's present, if it confirms our worst suspicions, it to me will be definitive proof of others being defrauded.  To be clear, I think my situation (catalog order) is a contract tort - my remedy is through the BK unless there is fraud proven in criminal court (as far as I know).

Another has brought up that we'll have to demonstrate that the (alleged) fraud caused our loss, but at scale I don't think it'll end up being that hard to argue that at no time did BD ever provide customers any indication that the accounts were anything but allocated accounts, and that IRA accounts were indeed precious metals IRA's - to which BD had a legal and most likely fiduciary obligation to act in accordance with the law and in their customers interest.

As a DIY'er, I googled a bit - it doesn't seem impossible to file a criminal complaint -- it may be duplicitive and unnecessary -- but since nobody has confirmed they've taken such a step, I don't know.

I'm still not a lawyer in this paragraph, so I don't know for sure -- but I'm pretty sure I'm not supposed to encourage anyone to take any specific course of action - or at least that feels wrong to me.

But there are people with a much easier way to prove reasonably that they've been defrauded - so let me channel nemo for a moment.

Do you live near travis texas, and have some free time?
Do you have a small-to-you storage related claim (ideally an IRA)?
Do you have in your inventory list metals that are definitively not on the vault list?
Did you at any time have reason to believe those metals were not yours?
Is it worth a couple of hours of your time to have some questions asked, and do some research about how to get more definitive answers around this situation so that you can make an informed decision for yourself how to proceed?

I can't / won't tell you you should press criminal charges - it may put your claim at risk (though I don't see it that way if you in good faith and reasonably attempt to comply with the duties of the law and make it about the crime not the debt), and who knows, if you really mess it up maybe it could put you or your assets at risk - when and doubt ask a lawyer.

Do not defraud the court, do not lie to the court, be respectful and you will often be treated respectfully in return.  It is most certainly not against your rights (should you eventually be deemed a creditor) to educate yourself and ask questions of the justice process.

I'm angry and frustrated like anyone else here - but it's time to shake off the shell-shock and treat this not as some white collar accounting issue, but for what it is - an attempt to convince people that misappropriation was mismanagement.

My money's most likely gone to a pissing match among lawyers - and that's what civil court  is about - money and things.  Fine.

But justice is more than just money - if a crime was indeed committed (and no evidence in the docket so far suggests to me one was not), then as a victim of said crime, I want to stand up, be counted and then let charles have his day in court to explain it.

Then, if out of convenience, that makes Charles' and any family members with whom BD's ever done business targets for additional civil recovery - well I'm a vindictive bastard, but I might have cooled off by then.  Who knows.

-n
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harley_52

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Posts: 132
Reply with quote  #5 
Actually, @nobody's position is exactly the same as mine.
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