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shooter magaven

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Reply with quote  #1 
Let me guess...If there was only $2,000,000 left to liquidate at BD, the IRS will get it all and we get the shaft.

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JG

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Reply with quote  #2 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter magaven
Let me guess...If there was only $2,000,000 left to liquidate at BD, the IRS will get it all and we get the shaft.


This is another one of these "It's complex" deals.

Yes, the IRS claim is a priority claim, which supersedes most other claims, and likely all customer claims.

But, there are two other pieces to consider. First, the amount of the IRS claim is really just a guess on their part. Did Bullion Direct really not file income tax for several years? Could Bullion Direct owe a lot of money if they ended up in this financial situation? Remember, the IRS guess may well be based on the assumption of wrongdoing (e.g. a Ponzi scheme, which this almost certainly is not).

The second is that if any metal is considered as belonging to customers rather than Bullion Direct (e.g. BD is custodian), I am pretty sure that that metal could not be liquidated to help pay other claims (in the same way that a bankruptcy couldn't cause your safety deposit box contents to be sold).


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LoneStarHog

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Reply with quote  #3 
My thesis that BD started to suffer losses in 2011 might be validated by the IRS claims that taxes were not filed; no profits, no taxes.

The $500K per year figure might have been from the previous year, or an average of the three previous years.  This is carried forward for each year of failure to file.

The IRS makes a claim until records indicate otherwise.

Also, are Texas Franchise Taxes paid for those years?  What about inventory taxes generally computed at end-of-business on January 31st?  Was there actual inventory upon which taxes are computed?

Always more questions, speculation, with no empirical data...
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shooter magaven

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Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneStarHog
The IRS makes a claim until records indicate otherwise....



Oh...but if we did that we would be investigated and prosecuted to the full extent of the law for Bankruptcy Fraud.

The people's government. .. do as I say, not as I do.
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JG

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneStarHog
My thesis that BD started to suffer losses in 2011 might be validated by the IRS claims that taxes were not filed; no profits, no taxes.

The $500K per year figure might have been from the previous year, or an average of the three previous years.  This is carried forward for each year of failure to file.

The IRS makes a claim until records indicate otherwise.

Also, are Texas Franchise Taxes paid for those years?  What about inventory taxes generally computed at end-of-business on January 31st?  Was there actual inventory upon which taxes are computed?

Always more questions, speculation, with no empirical data...


The 2011 idea does make sense; Tulving started losing money in early 2011. That's also around the time that there was more and more competition from online dealers.

Corporations are supposed to file tax returns even if they do not make a profit, though. And around 2012-2013, it seems that Nucleo was flush with cash. So there is no easy answer.

The Texas Franchise Taxes appear to have been paid; https://mycpa.cpa.state.tx.us/coa/servlet/cpa.app.coa.CoaGetTp?Pg=tpid&Search_Nm=BullionDirect%20&Button=search&Search_ID=17606225344 shows their status as "active."

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JG

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter magaven
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneStarHog
The IRS makes a claim until records indicate otherwise....
Oh...but if we did that we would be investigated and prosecuted to the full extent of the law for Bankruptcy Fraud. The people's government. .. do as I say, not as I do.


Actually, the bankruptcy code does have room for this. Bullion Direct could list it as a disputed claim.

And you could do what the IRS is doing, too, if the circumstances were right. For example, let's say you won a (legal) bet with Bullion Direct, and won 10% of their profits from the past 3 years. You don't know what their profits were. You should be able to put in a claim for what you thought it was, and then amend the claim once you found out for certain. I'm sure they would not charge someone with bankruptcy fraud for a Proof of Claim before the bar date (but please don't test my theory!).

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mindmelter

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Reply with quote  #7 

Why was Bullion Direct able to continue running the business (into the ground) if they did not file tax years ending 06/30/2012, 06/30/2013, 06/30/2014, and 06/30/2015? Sorry if this is a stupid question because I'm not familiar with all of the tax laws, but doesn't the IRS have the ability to shut down a business until they pay their taxes? Can the creditors sue the IRS for negligence?

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GWest

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Reply with quote  #8 
An important point here is that the IRS can be bankrupted, but not by a non-filer. This is why the IRS specified that the lien is for non-filing.
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JG

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mindmelter
Why was Bullion Direct able to continue running the business (into the ground) if they did not file tax years ending 06/30/2012, 06/30/2013, 06/30/2014, and 06/30/2015? Sorry if this is a stupid question because I'm not familiar with all of the tax laws, but doesn't the IRS have the ability to shut down a business until they pay their taxes? Can the creditors sue the IRS for negligence?


I'm not sure if that really is true (no taxes were filed), or if maybe they were filed but the IRS did not find the records somehow.

I cannot see how the business could have not even filed taxes for those years.

Assuming that they did not file the taxes, I doubt you could sue the IRS for negligence (remember, though, IANAL). You could likely file an objection to their claim with the bankruptcy court. But I doubt the IRS is going to see a penny here -- how could Bullion Direct possibly have made a profit during those years?

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