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JG

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gyro
So, there is a possibility that the "disputed" designation would be removed from most claims...and therefore proofs of claim would then not be necessary?


I believe so.

The part about the database not having an overall account balance is more jiggery pokery stuff. How can a database have a field that shows the cash value of metal whose price changes every minute? Once I had my own database (spreadsheet, actually, ripped from the PDF) I was able to determine the account balances for nearly all accounts in just a few minutes (based on the spot price I plugged in).

The "status" piece *could* be a bit trickier. If the database shows you as having 10 ounces of gold but you sold it a month before the company shut down and got paid for it, there is a problem. But I  believe it is an issue with them not interpreting the database correct, not a lack of data.

I think the bigger issue is the one they don't really address there:  the metal in the vault is very likely the property of specific customers, but they cannot identify if that 1 ounce gold eagle belongs to John, Joe, Sally, or one of the 50 other people it could belong to. If I could prove that eagle was my property, I should get it (not even the proceeds of it). If I can't prove it, and it is legally mine, it should not make a difference. So there may be a legal hurdle that needs to be overcome. Simply saying "OK, let's sell it all and distribute the proceeds to creditors" isn't simple enough (the lawyers and professionals take their cut, which doesn't happen if someone gets their own property returned).

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nobody

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Reply with quote  #32 
I call shenanigans on the database claims as well.  They may not understand it, but given that they could display real-time balances to each individual customer, their inability to get the aggregate is closer to signs of ineptitude than complexity.


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tboll

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Reply with quote  #33 
I appreciate your wit, nobody.
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jkline

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Reply with quote  #34 
Incompetence... Maybe, or there may be method in it.

I would have thought that M would have hired an accountant to do all of this. An expert that could testify under oath if necessary about assets, debts and how those numbers were ascertained.

If a judge asks M how he came by his numbers, 'my paralegal diligently calculated everything' won't fly.
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jvt999

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Reply with quote  #35 
I'd take ineptitude over fraud or deception any day.  Ineptitude can be corrected by someone with "eptitude." Fraud and deception?...hmmmm...sounds like what criminal lawyers get paid to find a way to do legally all the time....
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shooter magaven

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Reply with quote  #36 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkline
Incompetence... Maybe, or there may be method in it.

I would have thought that M would have hired an accountant to do all of this. An expert that could testify under oath if necessary about assets, debts and how those numbers were ascertained.

If a judge asks M how he came by his numbers, 'my paralegal diligently calculated everything' won't fly.


Like a forensic accountant? https://m.fbi.gov/#https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2012/march/forensic-accountants_030912

Which, at this point, I can't believe has not been ordered by the court...or maybe it has been, and for some reason I'm not getting a phone call or email from the judge about every decision being made.
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nobody

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Reply with quote  #37 
My resources:


inforuptcy's page

I hit refresh on that once in a while (it really wants you to sign up, but if you're quick, you can click through to see what it sees as the highest doc # in PACER - they refresh a couple of times a day).

If I see something new, I go to PACER over in west texas and buy the doc for $0.10/page (At this point I imagine I'm at 50 or 60$ -- the longer filings aren't cheap -- but I've been enjoying the show and consider it the price of admission for the best seats shy of being in Austin).

JG's probably doing something similar, but he redacts and posts and shares them with you (I approve!).

I've gotten less than half a dozen emails from BD - you wouldn't be getting a lot that way.
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jkline

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Reply with quote  #38 
Forensic accountant... Exactly. Not only of BD, but also of CM.
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jvt999

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Reply with quote  #39 
says 2-3 cents on the dollar return is optimistic

Well, if that isn't a lawyer hanging crepe early.  He might well have said, "Once we sharks have taken our piece of the remaining pie, as usual there will be nothing but scraps for those actually hurt by all this."

Guess once again, as always, the lawyers will get paid, and basically no one else, unless they have some inside connection to the lawyers.  We've been screwed since the moment we decided to trust CM, a man in debt trouble and over his head since 1999!!! We just didn't know it.  Those who got out simply b/c they had nothing to sell or buy did so apart from that knowledge. 

That essentially none of our metal is there is simply criminal.  AS a matter of fact, it would appear that everything CM did for years has been criminal, fraudulent, deceptive...and I do know that one can be the latter two without being the former, such is our legal system today once the lawyers are through defining what is criminal and what is not to the benefit of their clients.  It exists for the preservation of the wealthy, not the common man.
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tboll

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Reply with quote  #40 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvt999
says 2-3 cents on the dollar return is optimistic

Well, if that isn't a lawyer hanging crepe early.  He might well have said, "Once we sharks have taken our piece of the remaining pie, as usual there will be nothing but scraps for those actually hurt by all this."



I have to disagree with you here, jvt.  Once the lawyers, etc. take their cut the remaining payout to creditors (customers) might be closer to 1-2 cents on the dollar.  This initial estimate is based on distributing all the known assets to the creditors as of the time of the start of bankruptcy.
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JG

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Reply with quote  #41 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvt999
says 2-3 cents on the dollar return is optimistic

Well, if that isn't a lawyer hanging crepe early.  He might well have said, "Once we sharks have taken our piece of the remaining pie, as usual there will be nothing but scraps for those actually hurt by all this."


When I get the audio, this is one of the things I am going to listen carefully to.

For example, if Bensimon and Martinec tricked the attorney into thinking there was only $16.9M in liabilities (what it states in Docket 44), his estimate could actually be high. But if the patent has significant value, it could be low. What if all the metal somehow can be recovered? Did he state it with confidence, or as a ballpark number?

If Schedule 4 is "accurate" (meaning the $33M of listed liabilities is correct, not the $16.9M they add up), and the only assets listed as "Unknown" that can be recovered is the patent and it is sold for $10M, then it would seem the lawyer is talking about 20% of the assets going to customers -- which would be a complete farce.

One thing I looked for in the Tulving case was a source showing some bankruptcies as the percentage of the assets that got distributed to customers, but was not able to find a lot.

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liezel

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Reply with quote  #42 
Good blog post - Incidentally , others are requiring a 2013 Bankruptcy B10 , my company found a template form here <a href="http://pdf***.ac/8***cAmTq" >US bankruptcy court form</a>.
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JG

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Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
Originally Posted by liezel
Good blog post - Incidentally , others are requiring a 2013 Bankruptcy B10 , my company found a template form here <a href="http://pdf***.ac/8***cAmTq" >US bankruptcy court form</a>.


Thank you for pointing that out.

I would, however, strongly urge (to the extent I can without it possibly being construed as legal advice) people not to fill out bankruptcy forms unless they come directly from the bankruptcy court website (or an attorney).

If anyone happens to be looking for any bankruptcy forms and are having troubles finding them, I would be glad to help out.

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